Motivational Interviewing and Healthcare with Amy Burns
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Wow this podcast is full of great information about operationalizing Motivational Interviewing in a healthcare setting. Whether you work in healthcare, are in leadership in the Healthcare industry or just love Motivational Interviewing, you will love this podcast! Guest Amy shares all about her experience helping her organization and culture shift to Motivational Interviewing.
In this Podcast we discuss:
- Operationalizing Motivational Interviewing
- Changing Culture
- Fidelity of Motivational Interviewing
- Champions of change and Motivational Interviewing
- Coding training (Motivational Interviewing Competency Assessment-MICA)
- Train the trainer program
- And so much more!
Want a transcript? See below!
[00:00:00] Hello, and welcome to the communication solution podcast. Here at IFIOC, we love to talk communication. We love to talk motivational interviewing, and we love talking about improving outcomes for individuals, organizations, and the communities that they serve. Today, we’ve got Casey Jackson. John Gilbert and I’m Tammy.
Welcome to the conversation.
John Gilbert: Welcome back everyone. We are back here for another podcast. Then we have another very special guest. That’s also a director here, uh, and in my eyes quite a big wig. Her name is Dr. Amy Burns. And Amy, if you wouldn’t mind for getting us started, just give us a little bit of sense of your role and anything else you’d like to share of course, but particularly your role.
And then [00:01:00] from there, we can get into how you’ve applied, Motivational Interviewing, your thoughts on it and how you’ve applied it in your world.
Amy Burns: Yeah, sure. Well, first off, I’m really, um, happy to be here this morning, talking about one of my favorite topics It’s very exciting, with the “MI” Motivational Interviewing guys. Um, so, um, I am an associate program director for a psychiatry residency in Spokane Washington.
And, um, I, and my other role that I kind of created for myself, because I felt like it was important and is as the lead for motivational interviewing training for graduate medical education for all of the residency’s Spokane wide. Um, yeah, so, the basically, I first got into motivational interviewing, um, teaching Medical students that were, on a [00:02:00] psych clerkship.
And, then it kind of grew from there. In part, because of all the training that I got at IFIOC, that kind of helped me give me the confidence to be able to, to expand what I learned and teach it to other physicians.
Casey Jackson: Well, and I’ve got to dive in because just give Tammy and John context as well too, when Amy and I connected, I mean, there was multiple things that, that kind of grew from that one was just fascinating.
Because I’d done training for physicians before. And it really was a lot of looking at it at the time, actually looking at pagers and, and waiting to get out of the training and being respectful. But Amy was just questions, questions, questions, questions, questions, because she had such a phenomenal foundation of motivational interviewing.
And since we were teaching at less from kind of the acronym side and more of the fidelity. Kind of measurement side. It just, it was just like this kind of perfect meeting of the minds. And, [00:03:00] and for me, the thing that just was, just overwhelming was when, um, she had reached out and wanted to look at training, having actually having her instructors, physician instructors go through Motivational Interviewing training to think about how to train Motivational Interviewing in their classes, not just an Motivational Interviewing class, because that’s pretty traditional..
Like they have them go through a section on motivational interviewing. And that was kind of about where they were at. And Amy was lead in that, but in us and you know what, we need to infuse this in every, all of our coursework. Like this needs to be a foundation of how people conceptualize patient care.
Um, instead of, oh, they need to go through an Motivational Interviewing class. That’s, that’s where I was introduced to Amy and where we had some conversations and got to do a little bit of work together and, and with some of the, the team that she works with. So that gives you two context about just kind of just that’s.
That’s why I thought, oh, it’d be so fascinating if we get Amy to come on and talk about her perspective with this.
Tami Calais: Wow. Very forward-thinking to Amy.
Amy Burns: Oh [00:04:00] yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, one of the things that, That really influenced the way that I think is when I think about, life expectancy, disparity and behavior changes, health behaviors and how, these health behaviors are there things that are leading to life expectancy changes in our patients, in the medical field and, And a lot of reasons, a lot of ways motivational interviewing could, can result in behavior changes as significant as medications that we prescribe and, um, making sure that we can, have the skills and implement these type.
This form of treatment is as important. Pharmacology is for physicians,
um, because it can result in that kind of behavior change. And so, that was kind of the inspiration behind wanting to make our physicians that we trained really, really good. And the other thing that I think was [00:05:00] part of our thinking here in the Spokane graduate medical education was around, the, the idea that we pride ourselves on practicing evidence-based medicine.
And evidence the evidence base for teaching motivational interviewing, um, really demonstrates that one workshop is not enough to change clinician and client behavior, and that you really have to have the coaching and. Feedback and coding, if you really want to get your patients to change. And so without those things, um, the learners may think they’ve got it and may really like it.
They think that they’re doing it, but when you actually code them, maybe not so much, not so much. Yeah. Yeah. So that’s what, um, really inspired our teams to think about. [00:06:00] Um, less about, uh, the medical knowledge acquisition of like the acronyms and the, the theory behind motivational interviewing and focus more of our energy on skill acquisition and attitude, which attitude towards employing it attitude towards what is, what does this mean?
Um, valuing it’s important than their practice.
Casey Jackson: You know, and it was interesting timing as well, too, because we were working on the Motivational Interviewing Competency Assessment and, um, and some of your folks went through a Motivational Interviewing Competency Assessment training right in the early stages of us while we were developing it. And when we finally first published the very first version of it, I know we’re at version 3.2 now, but that first version, literally your, your folks were some of the first ones to get exposed to that.
Fidelity training. Um, when we’re, when we’re working on the motivational and competency assessment and got a little bit of feedback on that as well, too, in the process of working on it, which was, [00:07:00] it was exciting for us. And I think it was a fun kind of partnership right there in the beginning.
Amy Burns: Oh yeah.
Yeah. That was amazing. We had, we were able to send, , faculty from three or maybe four different residency programs. So internal medicine, hospitalists and family medicine, outpatient docs, and psychiatrists, we all came together. The faculty. Um, learned how to use the Motivational Interviewing Competency Assessment to code. And then we quickly turned that around and implemented it before everybody forgot it and got out of it.
That was really critical because then you can lose your confidence really quickly if you don’t start practicing it immediately.
Casey Jackson: Well, and I need to ask you this Amy, because you know, I’ve, I said it before, but I’m curious. I mean, motivational Interviewing is not new. It’s been around since 1984. It’s been, you know, swirling around the medical field for years.
And I know it’s implemented at a much larger level than it was, you know, [00:08:00] in the beginning, but it was, I guess, in my experience in the “MI” Motivational Interviewing circles that I run into, you know, and, and get exposure to nationally and internationally. In the states, it’s like pockets of, of programs that see value in it.
But mostly it’s just kind of this brief exposure, because there are so many things we need to get residents through. And it just like, it’s like dust in the corner, um, is the way I’ve always kind of perceived motivational interviewing. And when I met you, you were one of the first people I’d met in the medical field.
That was like, guys, we need to really, really, really pay attention to this. Like, this is, this is significant. Why did your brain. Grab onto why did you gravitate towards motivational Intervieiwng in the way that you did and you’ve stuck? Not only do you stuck with it, you continue to be completely intrigued with it.
Amy Burns: Yeah. It’s really hard to know, like why well, parts of it maybe have to do with just that. I really felt like it was a good fit for my temperament and my personal ethos about how I like to [00:09:00] respect my patients and, honor their. Autonomy and, where they’re coming from and what they want to do.
And I really experienced it as a way for me to practice medicine with less burnout. I felt less responsible for the, the patients outcomes and. While simultaneously making a bigger impact by practicing motivational interviewing. And so I found like it was a huge part of my own personal physician wellness.
I think part of it had to do with the fact that I was working with some really treatment refractory patient populations and, other strategies weren’t effective, medications were effective. And so I really needed to look outside of my normal. Um, psychopharm and so those are some of the dynamics that came together.
One of the things that I thought about when you were talking about is how, um, in the medical education [00:10:00] world, that motivational interviewing, you know, it, there’s more and more workshops being taught in medical schools. And then they’ll do another workshop during, um, residency and there’s near universal support for motivational interviewing.
It’s incorporation is, is still kind of emerging. And I think it’s starting to grow a little bit on the heels of a growing recognition of the problem. Substance use disorders are causing our society. And so there’s pockets within graduate, graduate medical education, um, that are calling for a motivational interviewing competency to be a requirement.
By the governing bodies over seeing I’m graduate medical education or residencies. Yeah. Yeah. So there’s been, um, and that’s probably been in the last five years that there’s been growing editorials and [00:11:00] calls for that. I’m on a task force. That really, um, amongst psychiatry training, um, program directors, that’s recommending motivational interviewing training in psychiatry residencies.
And so there is like a, some growing want need for that. And, um, you’ll see some trainings occasionally for graduate medical educators that nothing required.
Tami Calais: Tami, Amy, I had a question for you? So you mentioned you wanted to immerse, you know, your culture and motivational interviewing. My question is like, what, what did that systematic change look like for you guys?
I know you, you mentioned that everyone went through the Mica and the coding, but was it literally every single person went through, you know, training and then the Mica coding, or did you do like a smaller group that became like coaches to your organization that helped kind of coach other people.[00:12:00]
What was that systematic change?
Amy Burns: Yeah, well, I think I started myself and probably Dr. Mauer and I’m like what? He’s like motivational interviewing fan boy, number one. Um, and so he, and I would start doing some coding and then we decided we wanted to try to take it up to the next level.
Dr. Keeble was really instrumental, instrumental, and a real powerhouse and supportive motivational interviewing. It really helps to have leadership, that’s in support. And so that was a huge part of our success too, is that we had leadership that was really supportive. And then we had a group of, faculty from each program, not every faculty member from each program, but rather a few select champions that got the Motivational Interviewing Competency Assessment coding.
And then, each of our programs [00:13:00] implemented a series of curriculums that, um, made sure that we trained, every single physician that was coming through our programs, that’s kind of how we started, trying to build the culture.
Casey Jackson: Okay. Well, I have to say Tammy, on, as far as the culture goes on the flip side for me, I’ve trained, so many people in the medical field, but what stood out to me so much is that the culture had already started with, with Dr. Mauer and, and, uh, Dr. Burns his perspective because it was the first time I’d trained people in healthcare. Like, especially at the physician level, when they came in, interested to learn.
When Amy said they kind of hand selected some of the ones to go through that initial training, like the champions I just was, I always prepare for, I need to present differently to physicians. I just, I prepare for that. Um, because there’s a culture around that and this was the most collegial, [00:14:00] collaborative training. Like I was after day one, I was just blown away because their brains were so interested in learning from an integration perspective. So that cultural, I mean, Amy talks about that’s where it started for me. It’s like, oh, that started way before that with Amy and, and Dr. Mauer, his passion for it.
Because that had to have rubbed off for the folks that came into my training, the physicians who came into my training were so intrigued and wanting to learn, like it felt so like sponges who wanted to collaborate and talk about it and let’s look at nuance. And how would we present this to students?
And how would we weave this into this type of curriculum? I’m in the level of collaboration and curiosity. Was so far beyond what I expected. And to me, that is part of that culture that exists within their program. That, that didn’t show up because it’s like, Hey, let’s send some people through and then we’ll build culture.
That culture. What, for me, I could feel had been cultivated long before. Um, I was able to provide some information and support the initiative.
Tami Calais: That’s great. Yeah. I just am always curious because a lot [00:15:00] of agencies do come to IFIOC going, we want to immerse our organization and motivational interviewing. So Amy being a successful organization that has done that, granted Casey, to your point, it’s all because of the mindset people are coming in with.
But that’s just great to know.
Amy Burns: You know, like looking back on it. I wonder if part of it had to do with, that, We had our faculty champions self-selected and so they, they got to decide themselves that they were wanting to make this change. And, um, we had really pitched it as an evidence-based practice. And, really compared like, are we really training our physicians and evidence-based practice if we’re not giving them this piece of the, of the skillset, um, and really challenged their concept of themselves as a really comprehensive educators. Like, are you really, if you’re not doing [00:16:00] this.
Casey Jackson: Well, and, and again, because you know, Kenny and John, you both worked on so many projects.
What was interesting too, is like Amy was coding before the Motivational Interviewing Competency Assessment as well, too. I mean, that was just part of the expectation of the residents as they were submitting, um, and getting coding and coaching. That was just, that was just standard practice in, in the class. And so. For me, what was just, I still think it’s so progressive is that it was that integration into other classes outside of Motivational Interviewing, that it was really thinking about how do we put this into curriculum?
So this is a mindset shift within the context of the service we’re providing of how do we engage patients more effectively? And I think it was, and I even think it was on that parallel process when you’re thinking lifestyle medicine. It’s like, we need to think this way, because this does have profound impact.
And it’s not just a method. It really is. Something can have an impact on [00:17:00] behavioral health outcomes. And we need to think about this more comprehensively. I just think at the time when you’re thinking, you know, five years ago, six years ago, seven years ago, that was really innovative. I mean, that’s, that’s just not the exposure I had or what people that were training people in the medical world that I was talking to as other Motivational Interviewing trainers.
There just, wasn’t a lot of that going on. That was not the norm by any stretch. Um, so just context for people. I just want them to understand, like this really was innovation. Um, and it, and it wasn’t for the sake of innovation. That’s why I wanted Amy on is because it’s just her brain. Wouldn’t let go of Motivational Interviewing.
It’s just like, there’s, there’s a, there, there, and I need to keep looking at this and wow, this is really fascinating. And why have we thought about it this way? And then to have a team that was. Thinking that same level is just, that is outside the norm. It’s outside of the normal of everything I had experienced and, um, all the things from the, my world of other trainers, I talked to, it just wasn’t the norm in the medical.
Amy Burns: Wow. It’s so interesting to think about because, um, I didn’t really know that at the [00:18:00] time, I just knew that it was important in that, um, it needed to happen in order to take care of patients. And, you know, it’s been ironic. Like, you know, you have an unintended consequences, there’s been a huge physician wellness.
Um, that’s been coming out of this as the physicians feel less and less, uh, Personally responsible and unwell at the end of the day. So it really helps the patient, the patients take more responsibility and help them change, you know, so that the patient, that physician doesn’t have to take at home.
John Gilbert: Oh my gosh, Amy, that’s huge.
I’ve been trying to. Over the years, see burnout research. And there’s not as much as you would think in motivational interviewing, but there’s a lot of anecdotal reports and that’s, what’s so interesting is what you’re recording is this sense of a sense of not as burnt out and you can call it empathy, fatigue, compassion, fatigue that happens.
But for [00:19:00] physicians, there’s a lot of other things you’ve got to navigate as well. Yeah, that’s really interesting. And I’d be curious to do any sort of research around that because that is a right area. But I, I do want to highlight how you have gone about it seems to stem from, uh, an attitude of yourself that you brought to the table of having the champions.
Uh, which seems to be across all the organizations we’ve worked with really critical with your early adopters, like you obviously were keyed into, but then also you had an evidence based pitch as well. And that’s really important for, physicians not doing harm with the essence of the credit code, as well as you’re taking it to a level of an evidence-based practice.
So all of that seems to stem from your perspective and your attitude and how you’re approaching it. And then what you and Dr. Mauer brought to interact [00:20:00] with Casey. It just was this attitude of openness progression of contribution. And there’s just a lot there, but I want to also get a sense from you too.
Um, just with, with where you’ve taken it, you were mentioning to us before we started that you were recently at a conference, uh, presenting with this. And so it was really curious about some of those points you were making and what you felt was most important. Where you’re at now with what you’ve learned with the whole program.
Amy Burns: And yeah, it was really, it was really interesting this conference that we took, that we presented at, and I combined forces with, uh, four other training programs that were different parts across the country. Some of them small programs, some of them academic. Powerhouses. And we all came together and presented our motivational interviewing curriculum as kind of a, [00:21:00] of a way of, letting, other teachers kind of see how different programs do it, depending on their size, their bandwidth, the faculty, and so on and so forth. And so, um, at this conference, we talked about the evidence-based for teaching motivational interviewing and what’s known about. Um, how you have to, what you need to do in order to get your learners up to speed.
And then we each presented our curriculums, and there’s a huge variety in how and what curriculums look like across the country. Everything from an hour long didactic. With no role-playing at all, all the way to high fidelity coding, um, and tell proficient, you know, you have, you have to keep going until you do it kind of thing.
And, and so what, some of the things that, the takeaways from that, is that there’s a variety of different fidelity coding tools,[00:22:00] that the different programs I’ve talked about, you know, there’s the mighty them, which, um, because of the length of time, that of tape that you need to have is a little bit cumbersome for the medical field.
And for that reason, that’s part of the reason we really liked the Motivational Interviewing competency Assessment, but the majority, some have created their own tools. Some programs have that are even faster and quicker. Then the Motivational Interviewing Competency Assessment. And then I have even learned about some artificial intelligence. One of the things I learned about artificial intelligence, coding, a blizzard.
Um, and so I guess, like if a program had more money than time or faculty, you could theoretically think about, you know, purchasing artificial intelligence. I’m coding. I haven’t looked into it too much. Um, but so those are some of the things, um, you know, another thing that I really, um, took away from that conference [00:23:00] was this sense of.
I feel like in the medical education, we think of two or three, three different, pillars for training physicians, knowledge skills, and attitudes, knowledge, skills, and attitudes. And those, those are three things that we, try to teach around, for medical physicians. And I feel like as far as motivational interviewing correctly, We’ve been over-reliant we too much time spend on knowledge and these physicians can learn notoriously fast.
You don’t need to spend a few minutes, um, and you can let them read something and they can learn faster from reading. A lot of them can. And so we’ve really pivoted away from knowledge to spending almost all of our energy and skill, acquisition, and attitude. You don’t really feel like I know we’ll spend any time.
Tom teaching someone about something that they can read off of a piece of paper. So we do [00:24:00] not, even in our seminar, we don’t spend any time with knowledge. We just do skill acquisition. I don’t really care if you can pass a paper test on motivational interviewing. So, um, and the patients don’t care.
Casey Jackson: Well, because if they’re in your program, you already know they can pass the paper test.
If you give them the book and give them an outline of kind of what the expectations are, you don’t even need to do instruction and they’re going to pass a test.
Amy Burns: Oh yeah. I don’t. They, these people can jump through hoops in their sleep. But what is really hard is applying operationalizing the concept.
And, being, getting the skill that is the area for improvement. So I spend zero time. I think we do have like a two hour workshop in our first year, but the vast majority is on skills.
Casey Jackson: It’s probably not the best analogy, but the analogy I always use, because I actually, literally today I just got a text or an email this morning about people wanting train the trainer training and, and they want to send like their standard trainer for the organization through the training.[00:25:00]
And what I tell them is I compare it to brain surgery and I said, if somebody has never performed brain surgery, but they can teach it. That makes me nervous. Because there’s going to be questions and there’s application things that if you’ve never performed. You really don’t know how to instruct it well, so you can read the book and you can smart enough to teach people and tell them how to do brain surgery and talk about the mechanics of it and do a phenomenal job.
But if I put you in front of a brain , this is a dynamic process, it’s not a static process. Um, and when we’re talking about language and human behavior, and we’re talking about the brain and the way in communication, Like, it’s not as easy as you think. And, and people still want to reduce it to, well, it’s just a training on motivational interviewing.
And for me, the level of complexity, I mean, I’ve been doing this for 20 years, teaching it for 20 years and I’m feel like a novice still. Like it it’s just every time. I unfold new things. And I read the new things about, you know, brain science and trauma and the way the brain works and how language [00:26:00] affects parts of the brain and how our attitude affects parts of the brain.
And that affects how we should be speaking more using motivation to affect behavior change. So it’s like, so when I get these calls of people saying, Hey, we want to send somebody through a train the trainer. So our organization candidate, I always get nervous and I don’t want to be. Uh, contractor say, no, you just need to buy more training.
Cause that’s not it it’s this, what you’re talking about is there are things that need to be in your structure. If you really want to have this actualized in an attitude and a skill base, it is so beyond knowledge acquisition, like it is definitely beyond otherwise the reputation of Motivational Interviewing is well, we tried it and it didn’t work.
But then we measure that and they weren’t doing Motivational Interviewing, they were doing what you’re trained to do, and that isn’t necessarily motivational interviewing. And I think that’s, that’s again, why I think it was so innovative in the way that you conceptualize it. And the way that, you know, Bob was thinking the way, you know, your whole program was really thinking.
We need to think about this in a comprehensive way. And I [00:27:00] always believe with motivational interviewing, then the proof is in the pudding. What people find with evidence-based practices is when you practice with fidelity, Things get better. Otherwise it’s not an evidence-based practice. And so when you do get to that level of competency or proficiency and you feel less burned out, then you feel that shift happened.
That the one other thing I wanted to comment on what you and John were talking about with the, the shift in, in burnout and, and just, you know, physician wellness and, and, you know, practitioner wellness is I really been talking a lot about in medical model. Western medical model. We have just been forced to be the experts like that is the expectation.
You don’t go to school that long, you know, in any of our professions, you don’t go to school that long and get pushed as hard as you get pushed to not be the expert. You need to have the document on the wall. You need to show that you can jump through those hoops. And then when I tell people is, and your patient doesn’t care, They want to know that stuff is there, but they just want, they just care about themselves, [00:28:00] you know?
And so it, it forces motivational interviewing, forces a collaboration, but once you get past the, the part that you can surrender, that I have to be the expert. And instead I’m almost this medical consultant and I can sit shoulder to shoulder with them and find out how do you want to use my expertise to better your outcome?
And it’s a collaborative process. That’s where you see exponential behavior change happened from that point, but it’s just, that’s just culturally, not Western medical medicine. You come into the doctor, you sit, you explain what’s going on. They tell you what you’re supposed to do. And then we stigmatize patients by saying, yeah, they’re most of them are pretty noncompliant.
And it’s like, well, you’ve got to engage your brain in a behavior change process for behavior change to happen. You can’t dictate behavior change or everyone would behealthy. Eating their three square meals a day and exercising and minimum of 20 minutes a day. And as you would just hand them that brochure, you would just the book of health and say, read this book on health and do application.
Amy Burns: , Once again, it’s not about [00:29:00] knowledge, it’s about attitudes. It’s like, you can know what the right thing to do is, and not do it like our patients demonstrate.
Casey Jackson: Exactly. So that’s, I, that’s why I think for me and I it’s, it’s fascinating for me. That your brain wasn’t looking at how innovative it is. I think because from my vantage, right.
And being able to travel across country and around the world a bit and looking up through motivational interviewing that really your mindset was very progressive. Um, from that perspective, I know that when you’re in your own little world, it’s like, well, it just makes sense. So if it makes sense, I’m going to pursue this.
And it’s like the you and Bob or Dr. Mauer were just like, no, this is really something we need to look at.
Amy Burns: I don’t think we could have done it without the support of IFIOC. I know we couldn’t have done it because you guys were able to give us the background and to show us the evidence base about how you teach people, how people learn and then to be able to train us in the Motivational Interviewing Competency Assessment.
I mean, so it’s been a collaboration. I don’t think it’s any surprise [00:30:00] that, uh, the, our proximity toward you, you guys is the reason why we were able to pull this off.
Casey Jackson: Yeah, for me, it was the, kind of the, the, the perfect synergy that happened, the timing, the location, um, and just the chemistry, you know, because we, again, it is a, it’s a mutual admiration society with, uh, with yeah, just your whole team and, and, uh, it it’s, it’s just, it’s just always an odd, just feels fun to be shoulder to shoulder in little Spokane, Washington.
and to hear these things that are happening now, nationally or internationally, because of the work that, you know, our programs are.
Amy Burns: Yeah. You know, one thing that I’m really excited about, that’s kind of our next step forward is we are no to John’s question. We are gathering some data about physician wellness metrics from our learners to understand their experience of how motivational interviewing has changed their, their, um, experience of practicing [00:31:00] medicine in the other direction that we’re also moving in is starting to gather data measurement based.
Um, Uh, treatment. So using a metric to, and we’re going to be trying at first, an patients with addiction. So we’re going to be using de-brief addiction measure, um, in measuring how motivational interviewing is impacting our patient’s ability to change and to get better. Because I kind of feel like, that’s the holy grail. Like what’s the use of doing all of this. If the patients aren’t getting better. And so I’m really hoping to close the loop on our curriculum with that being the cherry on the top is if the patients first, we get the learners, um, you know, some tapes where we see they’re practicing high fidelity medicine, and then I want them to have the rewarding.
Experience of watching a patients, um, get better as a result of there. [00:32:00] And I feel like that that’ll be the final, like reinforcing loop to get the physicians, to keep doing it.
Casey Jackson: That makes so much sense. That that’s, what’s amazing. That’s amazing.
Amy Burns: That’s my dream. It’s taking, it’s going to take me years, um, to get it done because it has implications for our electronic medical record and workflows with MAs um, things that things are more complicated, but what else should get in to do.
Casey Jackson: Yeah. That’s, that’s why I look at our little corner of the world that it’s just like, it’s just. To hear where your program is now is just it’s so, so exciting. Um, well, if, if people wanted to, to touch base with you or reach out or contact you, what would that look like? Amy? I mean, how could people know.
Amy Burns: You can email me amy.Burns@providence.org. If they want to talk to me, I’m happy to share a curriculum. Love, to help other programs that are wanting [00:33:00] to, um, to grow and get better.
Casey Jackson: I just appreciate you taking time to do this. I know your time is incredibly valuable and it just, for us, I think for people to hear, um, your, your perspective and your vantage point and what your mindset has been, uh, is just incredible.
And I just appreciate you taking time to do.
Amy Burns: Oh, it’s my pleasure. Thank you so much. I, we couldn’t have done it without you IFIOC and a fan girl to.
Excellent you to admiration society. I love it. Thank you so much for coming on today, Amy. We really, really appreciate it. Yeah. Well, thank you everyone for listening.
Tami Calais: Excellent. Thanks. Fine. Thank you for listening to the communication solution podcast as always. This podcast is all about you. So if you have questions, thoughts, topics, suggestions, ideas, please send them our way at firstname.lastname@example.org. That’s [00:34:00] email@example.com. For more resources, feel free to check out ifioc.com.
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