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About this Episode

Welcome to today’s episode of The Communication Solution podcast with Casey Jackson, John Gilbert and Danielle Cantin. We love talking about Motivational Interviewing, and about improving outcomes for individuals, organizations, and the communities that they serve.
In this episode, we dive deep into the concept of hope and its connection to motivational interviewing. We explore how hope plays a vital role in motivating individuals and organizations to create positive change. The discussion touches on ethical considerations and the potential misuse of motivational interviewing. Throughout the conversation, the hosts emphasize the transformative power of hope and its ability to catalyze change in both personal and professional contexts.

In this episode, we discuss:

• The episode introduces the role of hope in motivational interviewing and its connection to positive outcomes in various fields.
• Casey discusses the characteristics of helping professionals that contribute to positive outcomes, highlighting the alignment with motivational interviewing principles.
• The concept of the placebo effect is explored in relation to hope, revealing its significant impact on health outcomes.
• Casey shares historical anecdotes related to the power of hope, including the story of Mesmer and hypnosis.
• The discussion delves into the dimensions of hope, emphasizing the role of optimism and self-efficacy.
• The hosts examine the relationship between hope, optimism, and motivational interviewing, emphasizing the importance of believing in an individual’s potential for change.
• Casey stresses the need for fidelity in implementing motivational interviewing to achieve consistent and measurable results.
• Ethical considerations regarding the application of motivational interviewing are discussed, with a focus on avoiding manipulation.
• The hosts emphasize the need for organizations to align their behavior with their values to create cultural change.
• The episode concludes with an invitation for listeners to engage in discussions and share their thoughts on motivational interviewing and related topics.

You don’t want to miss this one! Make sure to rate us or share this podcast. It would mean so much to us!
Thank you for listening to the communication solution. This podcast is all about you. If you have questions, thoughts, topic suggestions, or ideas, please send them our way at casey@ifioc.com. For more resources, feel free to check out ifioc.com.

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Transcribe

Hello and welcome to the communication solution podcast with Casey Jackson and John Gilbert. I’m your host, Danielle Cantin. Here at the Institute for Individual and Organizational Change, otherwise known as IFIOC, we love to talk about communication. We love to talk about solutions and we love to talk about providing measurable results for individuals, organizations, and the communities they serve.

Welcome to the communication solution. That will change your world. Hi everyone. I’m Danielle Cantin with the Communication Solution podcast. I’m here with Casey Jackson. How are you, Casey? Doing great. Awesome. Thanks everybody for joining us. We’re really excited today to talk about a concept that is very near and dear to my heart and weave it into motivational interviewing.

 Casey, on one of our previous podcasts,  we talked about the MINT forum. It’s a conference, motivational interviewing network of trainers international happens every year you go,  And in that episode, you mentioned something that I’m very intrigued with, and I’d like to talk about hope. And you mentioned that Dr. Miller,  was talking about hope and the value of hope. I’d love if you could weave in that concept. Does it relate to motivational interviewing? Did he say that it relates to motivational interviewing and kind of help? Positioned hope within this construct,  for communicating. 

There’s, there’s a lot to unpack with that.

 So it was fascinating, just like the, the conversation that you and John and I had had about the book that Miller, Dr. William Miller and Dr. Teresa Moyer’s just published around or relatively recently published around,  the characteristics of. The professional and how they impact outcomes. So that was not based in motivational interviewing.

That was just like what produces positive outcomes. But when they, when they did the research and looked at 70 years of data, 70 years of data of what, where were the outcomes, the most positive in healthcare, mental health, substance use, what were the factors? It wasn’t the model. It was the characteristics of the helping professional.

So that wasn’t motivational interviewing, but what Miller was talking about is when you look at the top five. The top five characteristics are the things that we teach and we train and motivational interviewing. So that was, so it was like, wow, now you can see where the data crosswalks. I think there’s a similarity to, because now the next book that Miller’s going to write and he’s researching right now is around hope.

So he’s looking at all the data around that. And he’s, he just presented his,  preliminary findings and he hasn’t even started writing as much of the manuscript yet, but just still gathering data and starting to jot down notes. And it was. Fascinating. So, like you had said before, you know, we can kind of get off on the side of, of hope and, you know, the human spirit and lean into that.

And there’s so much magic and potency and power to that. There are several things that he had talked about and, and, and I think that it’s hard. You’d be hard pressed to be able to be highly skilled or proficient at motivational interviewing and not have more of an optimistic perspective. And, and optimism is just one of the qualities embedded in hope,  that there’s an optimism to hope.

If you bridge it to the science, this was so fascinating to me. And this is where he was kind of chuckling about it, that for as maddening as it is to researchers, it is such a powerful reality and that’s placebo. Researchers just get, and practitioners are just. It’s, it’s just annoying that placebo effect has so much potency because, you know, no matter what the issue is, if people think it’s going to work or think that it could have potential to help, that is the power of the mind or the power of the brain.

So even though you’re just getting the sugar pill, you don’t have as much pain as other people that didn’t take that sugar pill because they think it’s some magic medicine that the placebo effect is real and you cannot escape. The research that shows how effective placebo effect is, it’s consistent and it’s maddening because 

yeah, 

that’s what he’s talking about 

here.

If you’re in a scientist, he was laughing at the, 

yeah, it just kind of checked me this like, you know, for as much as we get annoyed and we want to kind of dismiss placebo, the data keeps drawing us back to placebo effects. So placebo effect was partially what he was talking about in terms of a comprehensive assessment of hope because placebo effect is.

Rooted in the fact that people hope they could get better, and they hope this pill or this intervention is going to make a difference. And their hope is so strong that their outcomes improve consistently with placebo effect. So you can’t ignore that.  And then he talked more about the research around.

He even shared a story that was. Pretty fun. I didn’t know this history, but I knew about Mesmer, which is where hypnosis came from. And, and I can’t remember his first name, but I think it was Joseph Mesmer, but can’t remember his actual name, but it’s where mesmerized came from,  and hypnosis came from because he could take groups of people and magnetize them and that would, and they would get healthier and they were getting better outcomes.

And,  so, and it was kind of ticking off the king because it’s like, this isn’t. This isn’t magic. Is he magic? Like what’s going on? How can you just magnetize people and put him in a room and animal magnetism and all these things he’s doing and people were feeling better and reporting better outcomes.

And so what he did is he paid a researcher, which happened to be Benjamin Franklin to research this and find out, is this true or not true? And even Benjamin Franklin was a little annoyed because he just, He disproved that Mesmer was being able to do the things that he said. So he disproved Mesmer, but what he couldn’t disprove is that the actual reported outcomes of the measurable outcomes were better.

So it was just, which it just goes back to that placebo effect that people think they can get better or want to get better or believe they can get better and believe that you’ve given them something that will help them get better. That has a dose effect. That has an effect on people and that’s, that’s rooted in health.

So, so you look at some of the research just around placebo effect and that is based off the thing that people believe or want to believe strongly enough that this could help them, that they physically or psychologically improve to some extent. That’s interesting. That’s in a concept of hope. 

That’s interesting to tie it to motivational interviewing from my perspective, which is definitely novice, right?

It’s, it’s, it’s understanding that the people that get involved with training. And teaching motivational interviewing are definitely, like you said, optimists, and they have that hope they have that belief, right? Isn’t that a premise of motivational interviewing? You have a belief that that person can make a change that that person, 

this is interesting.

So this is a great thing to bring up, Danielle, because. What we do measure and again, I, I, Iwant to really build these bridges between what we measure and what we believe in, what we embody, what we measure is how you support autonomy and try to activate a sense of self, a sense of self efficacy, a sense of personal agency, which is going to be a Venn diagram laying over the top of hope as well, too.

So. Self efficacy and self agency is not necessarily hope, but to activate it, there has to be on the MI practitioner’s part. There has to be some belief that there’s, there’s greatness inside this human being to unlock. There’s potential to unlock,  and that the individual has the keys to unlock that.

So that is a component of hope. So that’s not a placebo effect, but when he was talking about the dimensionality of hope, that is one of the dimensions is. Can do when we look into someone, are we looking in there with the intention to see that there is a greatness that resides within there? That is a that’s an aspect or a parallel to hope they’re called other things.

But that these are all the dimensionalities of hope that that Miller was starting to tease out. So, and the way I look at that immediately or crosswalk that it’s into, it’s a variation of or a striation of supporting autonomy and activating autonomy. Amazing. 

I think, you know, yeah. You’re kind of an optimist as somebody filled with hope, not to say I don’t have my dark times or my, my times when I need others to help pick me up.

 And I’ve had plenty of forks in the road. I thank God have always kind of looked to the hope, the high road, right? of hope. That’s where I’m happiest. So that’s my natural place to live. And I know it isn’t for others. And so I get excited when it starts to be connected in science with,  you know, brilliant researchers and scientists,  like yourself, like Dr.

Miller.  That gets me excited because I can’t help but think from a business mindset, right? So having worked with so many CEOs,  part of what draws me to them is because they have that spirit of hope they have that spirit of perseverance and all of those qualities I love, but when it comes down to it at the end of the day, when they want to grow their business, you can’t walk in a boardroom with investors and say, We’ve got hope, like, like just sell on the hope piece.

So how do we, how do we talk to the professionals out there and the leaders who, who know and believe, yes, they are aligned with what’s possible. And so many of them are, but now does this start giving us a tool to even further. Say here’s the data and the backing and the research to actually help you through those conversations with investors or whoever you need from a scientific standpoint, from a number standpoint, to kind of get behind,  action, you know, putting into action the communication solution like this, 

you know, I think there’s two parts of it.

One of it I think of is. It’s not that difficult. You don’t have to dig deep to look at how positive outcomes are for businesses or individuals for our own mental health or on emotional health. The more you look at people that are optimistic or embody hope, and they operate from a place of hope they do have.

Healthier outcomes, they are more productive individuals. It just, and in some ways you can just step back and go that we don’t need, do we really need research? I mean, we have research to reinforce that, but you step back and just think, well, if somebody is excited every day and hopeful, they’re probably going to get more done than somebody that’s depressed and doesn’t want to do anything all day.

Like, it just, so from that perspective of just a hope or hopeless perspective, the level of, yeah. Health healing contribution is going to be greater from that perspective what Miller did distinguish between Which was fascinating is he also talked about false? Hope or blind hope and that that can that that has caused death and destruction in wars that people Were so hopeful and so believed blindly in a certain leader or a certain approach That they that people were massacred Because, you know, they were so unprepared because they were so blindly hopeful that something was going to happen.

And they were just wildly unprepared for that. So hope doesn’t actually blind. Hope doesn’t. It hope is not the end. I’ll be all it just because you’re armed with massive amounts of hope doesn’t mean that every outcome is the way that it could be because blind hope can get in the way. So he talked about looking at probability and possibility.

 If you’re not looking at probability and possibility and you just have hope that can just chew away at potential outcomes.  You have to part of hope is probability. Things will probably go. Well, they, the possibilities, which these have metrics associated with possibility and probability. We’re going to roll the dice.

 There’s probabilities and possibilities.  But I don’t know if you, you know, stake your entire, you know, fortune on the roll of the dice either.  Even if you are a hopeful person,  those are the things that you start to, how do you mitigate,  hope while you’re still maximizing. The potency of it, if that makes sense, 

it does, because I think that’s what drew me to you.

When I saw you on stage speaking, it was a senior living conference. And me as a branding person, you know, I’ve been doing this for decades and branding is so deeply rooted in the culture of a company and. It’s intricately tied. So it’s always challenging if I help a brand, like the leader, the vision of the leader come to life.

 The checkpoint really is operations, right? It’s like, are we really walking the talk and living this vision? Cause that authenticity, you might get away with it for a minute, but it will.  I saw you, I was like, Oh my God, out of all the tools out there to help operationalize,  culture, you know, the specific culture, the leader once ingrained in the company.

I was like, Oh, that was when I was like, the whole world needs to know about what you do, what you’re teaching. And to me, it’s just like. The, the name of this episode is like, you know, the hope, the power of hope in business. It’s just like, how do you actualize hope? It’s such a cool, a cool concept for me, a cool opportunity,  for so many, so many people.

And I’m gearing this toward businesses, but for, I think any individual, you know, 

it’s interesting you bring that up, Danielle, because it’s, it’s one of the things that. In wanting to get the word out, because my, my charge in life, you know, my mission in life is just to help people live happier and healthier lives.

And if I can make a career off of helping people have. Happier and healthier wives, like I’m, it will be a life well lived for me. And what I was trying to figure out, and it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s exactly what you’re talking about is I was seeing all these speakers that are inspirational speakers. I saw these people that were motivational speakers, which what people think motivational interviewing is, which it’s not, it’s not about motivational.

Used to. And I would see these companies, you know, because usually private nonprofit, you don’t get to access that usually can send people to a conference. And hopefully there’s somebody that’s motivational or they’re inspirational. Their corporations bring in these inspirational people or these motivational people.

But what I, what I was able to observe in, in all of this is that just because you can inspire does not catalyze change. Because if, if you’re not catalyzing change, people walk away inspired, but over the course, you will see that titrate over the course of days, weeks, or months that then they’re back into status quo again.

And so for me, I’m thinking, you know, you can invest in inspiration, which is, there’s nothing wrong with that fundamentally, but if you’re not catalyzing that into changing your culture, it’s just another good speaker who had a really. You know, intriguing story that we’re glued to every word that they said, but it didn’t catalyze change or a shift in our culture.

And I think that people keep thinking that if you expose people to it, they will become that. And that’s just not true. You can’t just expose people to a great pianist. Now you’re a great pianist can expose them to a phenomenal athlete. Now you’re a phenomenal athlete. You know, it, there is,  A formula of how do we catalyze this and move it into change that for me is my obsession about fidelity based motivational interviewing, because we know both the mindset that we can measure and the skill set that we can measure.

To help people shift and improve outcomes for themselves and other people. Now you take this inspiration or that motivation and if you can catalyze that into cultural change within an organization, it’s what I keep saying over and over and over again in terms of it is the mastery of aligning behavior with values.

And, and, and to providing a skill set for how to do that. And when you do that, and now I take a step back to hope and think, if you have a workforce that genuinely believes in the vision and they are being supported and affirmed for that, they are more hopeful. Who doesn’t want to be part of an organization?

If you, if you deeply believe in the vision, who wouldn’t want to be a missionary for that organization? And if you can see those outcomes improving, which makes you feel more hopeful. It makes you want to go to work every day. So that’s not because you’re inspiring. It’s because you’re creating change that aligns with vision.

So this for me is why you can’t separate hope from that. But it’s not about the hope in and of itself. But if you want your workforce to be able to move forward, feel stronger, if you as an individual professional, just want to know at the end of the day, what I did, I know made a difference for another human being in a positive way, we can replicate that.

We can learn that we can master that. And I get nervous because even on a training I was doing today, what people tend to continue to be leery of is they keep Having this fear response that there’s something manipulative about motivational interviewing, because it’s so effective. And the only thing that’s out of another human being means you have to be manipulating them.

And it’s just, I just feel like every day I’m trying to help people understand there’s nothing manipulative about. Fidelity based motivational interviewing, which is 

why you go at it from detention, right? You always start tension of the, just make 

people trade it as a, as a manipulative tool that, how do you use MI to get them to take their medication?

How do you get them to,  how do you use motivation to get them to not commit another crime? How do you use motivation to get them to do this? And it’s like, well, what you’re talking about is not motivational interviewing. You know, one of the things that came out, um. I was,  I’d get worked up,  they came out at the conference and I had my moment of frustration,  because I was in a breakout on ethical application, ethical and moral application of motivational interviewing, which of course I am.

That’s a breakout I want to go to. And I was getting frustrated.  And this is where I think it might just. Missing the point am I just on my own Casey Jackson track or, you know, or is it just that, okay, you’re seeing things from a different way that really this is a, a healthier way to look at it because one of the, what came up in this,  presentation, which becomes an open dialogue at a certain point in most of these was one person was talking from a different country interrogators.

On how to use motivational interviewing and so we asked, they were talking about, is that an ethical application of or motivational interviewing?  And his rationale was, but if we’re getting confessions from people that will prevent a war crime from happening. We’re sacrificing the one for the good of the whole.

And for me, that’s a conflation of the issues. And that’s where I start getting frustrated because, okay, now we’re conflating two different things. Because if you’re using it to interrogate someone, it’s not motivational interviewing. And what the speaker was saying is, no, that’s not an ethical application of motivational interviewing.

And I said, so if you listen to that tape, because this presenter was somebody that actually codes motivational interviewing. Using the mighty and I said, so if you code it, will it score is motivational interviewing. She said, well, no, it’s going to score low in the spirit of mi. And I said, if it scores low in the spirit of mi, it will not score as motivational interviewing, which means it’s not motivational interviewing.

Does that make sense when I say that Danielle? 

 100% does, and you’re getting me riled up . You’re trying, you’re trying to get, you already claimed the result and you’re trying to use motivational interviewing to get that. Result 

exactly. And this is a theme of, well, I use it in this way and this is how I’ve been able to navigate using motivation to get people to do what I need them to do.

And I raised my hand again and said, if we’re trying to get people to do what we want them to do, that won’t score as motivational interviewing. It means you will be using reflective, listening, open ended questions, maybe even strategically responding to language, but you are not going to score high. In the intentions on the Micah or in the spirit using the mighty.

So if you’re not scoring in motivational range, it’s not motivational. That’s not motivational interviewing. So this is where I was maddening. And so finally the analogy that I came up with, because you know, my brain, I did my brain works in pictures. So what I told them is where I’m getting frustrated is what it sounds like.

This is where my brain was at with and how I explained it to people afterwards were asking me what I was talking about is it feels like the conversation is, is it okay to use a ripe or an unripe plum when we’re making our apple pie and I’m like,  it doesn’t matter because you don’t use plums in your apple pie and they’re like, I know, but we’re using, but we’re using an, should we use a ripe or an unripe plum in our apple pie?

And it’s like, yeah, that’s not an apple pie.  We only use apples in apple pie. I know. I used a plum. They might be like 

me because I’m sitting here, I don’t cook or bake. So I was like, I knew there’s a pool.

Cause there’s not, because that would be an apple plum pie or it would be a plum pie, but it wouldn’t be an apple pie. And, and this is where I just get, I think this is my obsession. Ironically as a clinical social worker that I’m so obsessed with fidelity because Inormally be on the other side arguing a different point, but since I believe so strongly in fidelity, you only put apples in apple pies.

Yeah, I know. But I use, because we only have unripe plums. It’s just like, that’s what I use. It’s like, which is fine. It’s probably an amazing plum pie or a plum pudding, but it’s just not apple pie. So let’s not say that, well, this is a variation of apple pie when you’re not using apple pie recipe. And that’s how I have to go back to my brain.

So simple that way. That’s like, I need to just keep it simple in my brain because all these applications that people are talking about ethical or unethical application of my mind going, those will not score. As motivational interviewing, because it’s not supporting autonomy. It’s not trying to expand a person’s sense of control.

You’re not partnering to get to their best outcome, which means in the mica, it will not score as motivational interviewing, no matter how nice, no matter you could do. You could do everything out of your mouth could be a reflective statement from the beginning to the end. And that does not make it motivational interviewing.

That just makes it a lot of reflective listening. And I think people keep conflating these concepts and I keep trying to go, I’m not, we need to be clear. What are we talking about? And this is why I think it’s so important when we’re talking about hope in that same vein. Yeah. 

And then the way my brain translates this too, cause it’s fascinating about interrogation.

You’d got me a, give me a lot to think about there because I know that,  hostage hostage negotiators, you know, call you in for, for help and support in that realm.  I know where I met you was senior living. And you had to, to work through your own ethical issues of like, Oh, okay. Am I going to help all of these companies that want me to, you know, the two areas I see you working in is sales training.

Right. So, or human resources within dominantly within a company and for the sales piece, what was really important to you around this topic of what happened with the interrogation?  Conversation is that the leaders in the organization has to be fully committed to M. I. In terms of allowing in senior living, for example, a prospect looking to move into the community, you have to be willing to help them come to their best conclusion for themselves, not.

Not the end game is they must move into our place. And so that was where you were like, Oh, I don’t know if we can go down this route. How many years ago? And then you realized, Oh, there are companies really willing to do that, to really put their, their,  walk their talk,  to put their money where their mouth is and just say, yes, let’s help people through one of the most difficult decision points and points of change in their life.

Whatever the outcome, and then they see the result, you know, obviously the results are there that, that their occupancy always increases, but, but it’s really interesting because you are committed to whoever you’re working with, that they be aligned with that, that message, 

the intention. The thing that I’m the most committed to is not bastardizing what motivational being is.

I think that that’s where I get so frustrated is that. I hear people saying they’ve implied, or they, you know, we’ll use M. I. in our agency, or we use it in our organization. And then I watch the interactions and I’m like, well, this is an M. I. And again, that same analogy, because I always use that kind of grandma’s recipe analogy for fidelity is, you know, when you hand me,  you know, a graham cracker with some chocolate chips melted on the graham cracker, and I take a bite of it, they’re saying, yeah, this is grandma’s.

Chocolate chip cookie recipe. And it’s like, no, that’s not, it’s a graham cracker with melted chocolate chips on it. It doesn’t even taste like what I know, but this is how we do motivational interviewing. It’s like, well, that’s not motivationally because motivationally tastes like a very specific hot out of the oven chocolate chip cookie that your grandmother makes.

Like that’s a very specific recipe. So when you hand me a graham cracker with some chocolate chips melted on it and I take a bite of it, I’m going. Well, this is an M I the response where you say, no, it is M I it’s just our version of it. It’s like, well, no, because M I is this very specific recipe that is measured this specific way.

But motivation is such a catchphrase because there’s so much funding that’s offered around it that people want to say that they’ve been through M I training and we use M I in our organization, but we have to use it this way because of our population. And it’s like, to me, that’s, there’s a gap in the training and understanding of what motivation really is then.

And then the, the harm starts coming in when the data doesn’t prove it out and it’s just like, oh, you didn’t get the outcome and the results that are amazing that, that you’re used to seeing. If somebody doesn’t do that, you know where to look. It’s like, hmm, I don’t think you really implemented mo motivational interviewing.

’cause the. The evidence based research is there that it works. 

Daniel, that is right on that. That’s exactly it. Because when the data doesn’t bear it out, and then it just, it just causes a writing reflex. Then I hear, well, we used to have mine. It doesn’t work with our population. I’m like, I know it works with your population.

You may not be using MI. And usually what it comes down to is they’re trained on good communication skills, great communication skills.  You know, reflective listening, open ended questions, but that doesn’t make it. Grandma’s recipe, motivational, motivational, which is why I always use that same analogy with cooking is, yeah, there’s all sorts of recipes that use flour and show you how to whip the butter and when to add the sugar in.

And when you add the vanilla in, that’s the basis for 1000 different baking recipes. But those thousand recipes taste completely different because from there, which one, which recipe are you using? If you’re using grandma’s recipe for motivationally, it will taste the same every single time and you’ll get the outcomes associated with it every single time.

So it shouldn’t taste like a graham cracker with some chocolate chips melted on it. That’s not what they were doing, you know, 

now you’ve expanded your stories to plum pies. 

Yeah, well, that’s what it’s like. Well, I used to have my this way. So is that nothing? And it’s like, well, that’s not motivational interviewing.

And people are really struggling with that in the, in the breakout going, well, no, this, because I use it that way too. And it’s just like, then I’m just like, oh, I’m in a, you know, I’m in a rabbit hole. That’s going to be hard for me to get out of my own brain. Because it’s like those, if it’s not measuring as motivational interviewing, yeah.

It’s not motivational interviewing. Yeah. Wow. What a winding road of hope. I just went. fun. I could talk to you, Casey.  I think,  you know, catalyzing hope is a very intriguing, compelling topic that I’m excited to get this out there because it is available. So anybody, all of you listeners out there, if you want to catalyze hope and prove it and back it up, reach out and we can.

You find a way,  but any, any last words you’d like to share about, about this topic, Casey? 

The 1 thing I’d say is just that,  you know, I’ve said this so many times in so many of the podcasts. This podcast is 100 percent about you. Those of you that listen.  And I’ve ran into a couple of people that said, hey, I listen to your podcast and I’ve invited them on.

And so they’re going to be coming on. If there is, if you ever want to have a conversation. About motivational and you’re a listener and there’s a question that you have, or you’re like, oh no, I couldn’t do that. Or not. These are the things that I hear from people. I’m like, this is the only reason I do it is not to hear myself talk.

The reason I do this is because I want people like you to jump into the conversation with me and pick my brain and stretch my brain and, and talk about things that you’re the most interested in. So it’s just another time that I’m going to keep throwing those invitations out there. Okay. You know, to reach out to us and just say, Hey, I’ve got some things.

Could I be on the podcast? I can tell you that more often than not, the answer is going to be yes. I want you to, I want, I want to hear what your thoughts are. And if you disagree with me, that’s totally fine. Like this is a chance and a space for people that are interested in these topics to really be able to dive deeper into it and really, you know, flesh it out and see what, where does this fit in my life and, and can this help me be who I want to be pressed professionally or personally?

So yeah, I just want to keep. Putting that invitation out there to anybody that’s listening to the podcast. Awesome. 

I appreciate you so much, Casey and all the listeners. We appreciate you beyond measure. It’s incredible. Thanks for trying to be that change in the world and actually doing it. Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you. We’ll see you next time. Thank you. Thank you for listening to the communication solution podcast with Casey Jackson and John Gilbert. As always, this podcast is about empowering you on your journey to change the world. So if you have questions, suggestions, or ideas, send them our way at Casey@IFIOC.com. That’s Casey@IFIOC.com. For more information or to schedule a training, visit I F I O C dot com. Until our next communication solution podcast, keep changing the world.