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About this Episode

We hope you found value in part one of this podcast. Thank you for joining us for this second segment.
Welcome to today’s episode of The Communication Solution podcast with Casey Jackson, John Gilbert and Danielle Cantin. We love talking about Motivational Interviewing, and about improving outcomes for individuals, organizations, and the communities that they serve.
In this episode, we continue with the enlightening workshop conducted by Dr. Bill Miller and Dr. Teresa Moyer. They delve deeper into the attributes and skills that contribute to effective communication and empathetic interaction. The conversation also touches on the potential implications for various fields, including coaching, therapy, and more, as they explore the significance of individual attributes over professional labels.

In this episode, we discuss:

• Attributes Over Degrees: The discussion highlights the importance of practitioner attributes over formal degrees or labels in driving effective communication and positive outcomes.
• Efficiency of Outcomes: Assessing parameters related to sustained talk and change talk within the first five minutes of an interaction can be an indicator of effectiveness, emphasizing the efficiency of outcomes.
• Challenging Norms: The evolving approach to communication challenges traditional systems and structures, pushing professionals to embody essential attributes.
• Integration and Synergy: The hosts and guest contemplate the integration of these attributes across various fields and the potential synergy it can create in diverse roles, from health coaching to therapy.
• The Power of Compassion and Empathy: The episode underscores the profound impact of compassion, empathy, and positive regard in improving communication and positively influencing others.
• Hope as a Self-Fulfilling Prophecy: The concept of hope is explored further, emphasizing its role in shaping self-fulfilling prophecies and outcomes.
• Assessment and Competencies: The importance of developing assessments and competencies related to practitioner attributes is highlighted for various professional roles.
• Challenging Established Practices: The hosts and guest discuss how this evolving perspective may challenge established practices and systems within different industries.
• The Ongoing Conversation: The episode concludes with a commitment to continue exploring these crucial topics in future podcasts, acknowledging their complexity and importance.

You don’t want to miss this one! Make sure to rate us or share this podcast. It would mean so much to us!
Thank you for listening to the communication solution. This podcast is all about you. If you have questions, thoughts, topic suggestions, or ideas, please send them our way at casey@ifioc.com. For more resources, feel free to check out ifioc.com.

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Transcribe

We hope you found value in part one of this podcast. Thank you for joining us for this second segment. Hello and welcome to the communication solution podcast with Casey Jackson and John Gilbert. I’m your host, Danielle Canton. Here at the Institute for Individual and Organizational Change, otherwise known as IFIOC, we love to talk about communication, we love to talk about solutions, and we love to talk about providing measurable results for individuals, organizations, and the communities they serve.

Welcome to the communication solution that will change your world.

Well, it really sounds like a sort of Way like that. I’ll talk about and I’m open to correction here, but like a way of being, you know, is what they talked about with Carl Rogers, but almost like some way of treating not. And you could say that similar, but then also embodied. And that seems to be this, like.

way of seeing where you are talking about the positive regard. And then if you go beyond seeing, now we’re talking almost about like believing certain things and holding a belief. So did they talk about like, You have to believe in the person or anything like beliefs because we’re starting to realm into The way I see you and the way I treat you and the way my attitude is towards you Starts to point towards how I believe if you have answers not just within you more traditionally But if I believe certain things, so I don’t know, I don’t know if that that was addressed or your thoughts on that.

It wasn’t, and, and the, the, I would say that that concept that you are articulating right now. Aspects of that kind of an event diagram fell under, positive regard acceptance and the way they were defining hope, which is really how we perceive other people. What I liked about, I think this is my learning curve is that I think I have my own biases towards certain words like hope when people are saying, well, it’s so critical, it’s a critical concept in people getting better and healing and healthy and all these things.

And it’s like, is it the airy fairy definition of hope? Or is it, is there something that we know we can replicate without it being scientific because hope is such a magical thing, right? So, I mean, just that’s where my brain waffles back and forth, but the way they talked about hope that, that, touches on what you’re bringing up is I loved what they talked about.

Hope has to do with basic, a basic concept around self fulfilling prophecy. If you think this person is not going to get better, odds are they probably are not going to get better under your care. And if you believe this person has capacity to get better, and that’s their version of hope, the way it’s defined in research, if you believe that, then there’s a higher likelihood, which is a little bit different than positive regard, and it’s a little bit different than acceptance.

Does that make sense? And that’s why they were really trying to, to, distinguish the definitions. But for what you were bringing up is how I view this person. Those are the three that immediately kind of pinged in my brain. Is there the way they were articulating positive regard the way they’re articulating acceptance and the way they were articulating hope?

It’s kind of that our perception of that person doesn’t have an impact and they can say very much so it’s, it’s, there’s like, there’s a visual coming to mind that this is like the, that am I, or the tenants of the seven eighths or six eighths we’re talking about that. Am I is. Embodying that that would be the foundation to helping of some kind and in health coaching.

That is what Dr, you know, Susan Butterworth was trying to make the case for some years ago that it’s the foundation of health coaching is motivational interviewing. It sounds like with this book and the research that it’s looking that the closest thing we got that embodies everything for 1 thing of all this.

Is my as a foundation, and then from that foundation, there can be complimentary, if not synergistic outcomes with anything you add to it. So it’s not to say that it’s the panacea. Then, as I’m thinking about this with. One of those pieces of that we were talking about. It’s that it seems to be the foundation.

Yes. Would that be accurate with the research so far? That would be accurate. And I’m going to keep going back to is that’s where they’re talking about kind of the skills or the embodiment of the individual. On the effectiveness of the model that they’re using, you know, and or even pulling away because that was, I want to make sure I state that clearly is there’s just going to be more about evidence based processes and not about the brand of treatment that you’re using the name brand.

It’s gonna be more about the processes of what the evidence shows, which processes that a person embodies has that correlation with positive outcomes. So, and I think that’s gonna be difficult because so many people want to lean into evidence based practices. Like, what is the brand name? Look at the research around this brand name.

I think that is so enculturated in professional circles. I think this, I think this is not gonna get, I think it’s gonna get a ton of a cred, a ton of credit, but I think it’s just like hand washing for physicians. I think it’s gonna be a slow role to get there because we are so culturally obsessed with what model is gonna have the most impact.

Um. And this really is going to push that differently. I don’t think it’s going to negate it, but I think it’s going to have to force people to expand their thinking because our, our natural tendency is just want to pull the neutral off the shelf, because it was branded really well. And there’s good research around it.

I think it’s gonna be difficult to bring people up to speed with. It’s about the individual.

I actually. You know, the one other thing I’ll say real quickly, too, because to finish this thought is that my guess, and I don’t know if this is going to be true or not, and I think this is probably go back to the individual, but I think fields tend to be more like social work fields. That tend to want to lean into an eclectic approach.

I think they’re going to more readily gravitate towards this construct than like a medical model approach that very much is you need to pull this tool off the shelf and this is what you use because this is what insurance is going to pay for and you’re going to need to be able to articulate that. So I think that would be my just leaping.

You know, five years ahead of where it’s going to be the sticking points. And I’m going to think from an insurance perspective, what we’re paying for is we’re not paying for you to be a good person. We’re paying for you to use these tools to fix this person as efficiently and as cost effectively as possible.

Yeah, I was just going to jump in because I love the diversity among, among us, the three of us and where our brains are oriented from. So mine is so many different things. One is. You brought up coaching, John, and so in contrast to something like insurance pays for a medical model type solution or tool, my head goes toward all the coaching and the how that whole industry is evolving, not only for whether it be health coaching, business coaching, whatever might be out there.

As well as like, for some reason, dentists popped into mind more and more dental practices are saying, I’m opting out of insurance, it’s private pay, and the less that the medical world is driving and insurance is driving what the solutions are. I find it interesting because when you think about being on the other end of a solution, and you’ve got a problem, do you really care how you’re going to solve it?

And you, you as that practitioner is everything because I’m trusting you. I’m engaging with you for who you are. And I don’t necessarily need to know how skilled you are to fidelity. You are with a certain tool. Cause I just want the solution. It’s fascinating when you say that. I mean, just, this is just recent experience literally last weekend for me with a friend who had called in utter desperation, like who would have said.

If it wasn’t against my belief system, I probably would step off the planet at this point in time, I would probably end my life because I don’t want to be here anymore. And in that desperation, it’s somebody who’s retired, you know, retired professional, very well respected professional, but the emotional pain was so high that it’s like, I don’t care if my insurance covers it or not, I will pay out of pocket.

I need. The level of desperation is so high that anything that is going to help me hang on, I’m willing to do. And I think that’s the whole thing about, you know, do you wait three months on a waiting list to get to the best evidence based practice when you’re in that level of dire straits? Like that’s, I think this is where people are running into.

It’s like, I can’t wait anymore. Like I would rather have some semblance of sanity back in my life and if it doesn’t come soon, I can’t hang in there because part of that person’s desperation was the waiting lists are so long to get in anywhere and if you don’t have the right insurance, it’s even longer.

But if you’re willing to pay out of pocket, it moves you to the front of the line. So I mean, it’s just those things I think are so complex. Then we get into whole, which we’re not even gonna touch, but just the, you know, the socioeconomics of, Services for people and just the disparities out there for marginalized populations.

Oh, I mean, that’s it. It opens up a whole nother podcast in terms of podcasts right there. Yeah. If, if individuals, you know, and it is all about the individual and their mindset and how they apply what. With their, their learning that opens up a whole other discussion, you know? Yeah. And is the thing that strikes me too, just now that that kind of, that construct clicked is I think what is going to get a little interesting.

And I, John, I’m really curious what your thought is on this too, because I know your brain will go there is what is that going to mean if we’re looking at these. I don’t wanna say attributes, but if these are things that we can, some of us embody, some of us get more training on, some of us can learn and expand and grow on.

If people embody these, how do we keep the differentiation between a coach, a health coach, and a therapist? You know, I mean, it’s just like, because we’re looking at the attribute and not the role label. Just like some people are hired based on are they confident in motivational interviewing? So they may be a therapist.

They may be a case manager. They may be a health coach, but they’re looking more at those attributes now, which has always been part of a hiring process. But this, I think, is going to push that to a whole different construct in terms of, are we hiring a position? Are we hiring a person? Because this person can do a lot of these roles if they embody these, if that’s if the data is accurate, which the level of meta analysis they did, it’s At this point, pretty accurate data is going to be more about the attributes of the individual than the actual label.

And of course, there’s going to be differentiations because I don’t know what, you know, as an RD, but how much of that is going to be critical. And I think especially when offering information advice has the least potency, that’s starts to become very fascinating. Not that it doesn’t have potency, but you know, when you’ve got seven other factors that have more potency than, than your personal expertise.

Yeah. I mean, there’s, we’re over, you know, we’re, we’re, we’re deep into our time for this podcast. So it makes me think how much longer, you know, do we go into this and maybe a future podcast? And I’m open to that. Of course, where my mind goes is thinking about, well, how would you know, do you just get a vibe from someone, right?

And this is where you can get into the psychology of what we’re, what, what are we talking about right now? It’s. These attributes that you were just referencing Casey. So if these are attributes. How do we screen for them? Well, we gotta be able to describe them. We gotta be able to assess for them in some sort of a way.

So how do we even do that? That being a really important potential to operationalize, no matter if you’re a dentist assistant, you’re saying, or a health coach or an executive coach. And you know, there’s some parts of the Micah that I think could fit with that. But I also think some of these things are different.

And so I think having some sense of. Assessing these things and having that standardized in some sort of a way would be extremely helpful as a, as an extremely foundational 1st step. Not only that, but then what’s the difference between a therapist and and someone at the bar drinking, talking with the bartender.

You know, at a certain point, we could make these ridiculous comparisons in some ways, but it’s like, there’s a certain level of experience KCU as a therapist and metacognition and, and, and things going on in your mind that are beyond the information you have that we could screen some of that stuff. I think 4 and the 7, but I also think, Okay.

Those 7 could be missing out on something in the context of the situation, and I don’t know what that is, but that’s my hunch. And the same goes for the RD thing with different RDs that have different beliefs that they purport onto the evidence versus try to, you know, all that stuff. I think there’s still other things to play into it, but I think.

This is starting the best evidence based big swath stuff that could be used to start assessing in all these areas like Danielle was getting that. And so I think coming up with an assessment around that is really important coming up with, well, what’s the competencies beyond that stuff? That matter and do they matter?

I think that’s really important. And part of why supervision exists in therapy and some other things would be to embody these things, but I bet you there’d be other things, in that I would imagine, but that I don’t know. That’s my hypothesis. Well, and I think where the, the, the friction is going to continue is systems do not want to lose power.

So there, because we, I know I’ve heard of stories where there’s a guy, you know, sitting in a bar next to a stranger and they get into a deep, meaningful conversation and that conversation got the person to never want to drink ever again. By the time they were done talking, you know, never had a drink since that day with that stranger in the bar.

I have a friend that that happened to. And so it’s like, you can’t negate that outcome. And the person didn’t have a degree. So, and I think that’s going to be difficult for systems to, if people are embodying these things, I think there’s a fear to systems that it’s like, but then where’s our place and where do we generate revenue?

If people. You know, can do these things without a degree or they embody these things naturally or focus on developing these skills, you know, it’s like, well, doesn’t matter if they’re sitting in a bar. It doesn’t matter if they’re sitting in a clinical setting. Like, I think it’s just going to start to challenge some, some norms and structures.

As we look at, you know, what people embody. So again, I think there’s at least 15 to 16, maybe 17 other podcasts just from the last 10 minutes. I’m laughing the thing that you’ve mentioned that’s coming back to me is it’s like hand washing for physicians. I feel like all of these little nuggets from everything is just like, okay, let’s see how it’s going to start integrating and trickling through the systems a lot of that’s where I hope that we can look to the evidence as well as well as our, you know, inferences of our experience to it.

Because, Yeah, I believe there are going to be research things in the future, assessing these parameters and assessing a graduate degree or a undergraduate degree or no degree with these things right now, to me, it’s, it’s, it really matters. Meta analyses are the highest degree of, of evidence for looking at stuff.

And we know that peer advocates have their own research and what, you know, what are we really talking about with that? Where maybe information is more helpful or self disclosure is more helpful where. How does that, you know, relate to some of those things, but maybe not as much explicit empathy. I don’t know, but I’m simply getting at that.

I think there’s going to be a lot to tease out as well. If we want to take a purely evidence based approach in the meantime, I think there’s some level of faith. Into what the research is showing and faith that trust, whatever word you want to use, that these parameters tend to pop out effective outcomes.

Now, how efficient do, can we be at such effective outcomes that might be the thing for me that I’m hypothesizing that is where the experience of the person, the, graduate degree or whatever might come in. To really help with the efficiency of that effectiveness, potentially, well, there are 2 things I want to comment on as we wrap up.

1 of them is Terry. Actually, Dr. Teresa Morris actually has a new research. Publishing in terms of efficiency within the first five minutes, the amount of sustained talk and change talk within the first five minutes can be an indicator. So it’s like, Oh, now we go back to, we do have some measurement about, it’s not about degree.

Is it about your efficiency of being able to hear and assess sustained talk change talk? So that’s again, another two hour conversation. But the biggest thing from us talking about this today is there’s something really settled in me. And I’m so glad that what we conceptualize was the communication solution and not that it’s.

That’s the espousing of my period. I mean, I, I love that what we have tried to do has been in alignment with what Dr. Miller and Moyers have, are writing about in terms of, we just want to help people have real conversations in real time to improve, improve the quality of life. For their, you know, professionally and personally, so it brings him back into the whole function of what the communication solution is.

What we set out to do with this podcast is just, you know, have open conversations because it’s, it’s never supposed to be applied to hostage negotiations, but we could have podcasts and explore what does that mean? And what does it mean for union strikes? And what does it mean for, I just, I like that that is kind of the foundation that we settled into is just, let’s just talk about what is effective communication.

And now we’re talking about. Yeah. You know, growing how we look at it through an evidence based practice lens, even further and pushing those envelopes and pushing the thoughts further. So it makes me excited about. You know, subsequent episodes. I love it. It breaks down barriers. That’s what I think your work does and it includes everybody.

So it’s, it’s a wonderful, wonderful, podcast. I’m sure we’ll continue the conversation. Thank you so much. I do have to leave on one parting note, which cause you kind of did a little to the hope tenant and I got excited on that one and I was like, Oh, we’re going to have to talk about Shawshank Redemption.

Cause that’s the whole crux of that movie. Yes. So there’s so many great, great things to continue. One thing I will ask you is if for our listeners, who may or may not be, you know, tuned into motivational interviewing or practicing it, but understand that this is a communication solution, what would your advice be to them, given what you learned today and experienced with doctors Miller and Moyer?

I can just tell you off the top of my head, and I can’t remember who the quote was, but it was never underestimate the power of compassion. There is no greater burden than to go through your life thinking no one cares or understands. And I think that’s, for me, is just the power of empathy, of listening, of seeing people in a positive way.

I think those are the things that I would consolidate. I think when I look at it, I mean, there’s parts about being a good person, but it’s like how to be a good person and being a good person is going to have a positive impact irrespective of if you have initials after your name, you know, it’ll make you a better parent.

It’ll make you a better partner. And those are the things I think that are so profound when we look at healthy communication. Amazing. Amazing. Great summary. Great advice. Thank you so much. You guys, we will see you on the next podcast. Thanks everybody for joining us. Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you for listening to the communication solution podcast with Casey Jackson and John Gilbert. As always, this podcast is about empowering you on your journey to change the world. So if you have questions, suggestions, or ideas, send them our way at Casey at I F I O C dot com. That’s C A S E Y. at I F I O C dot com.

For more information or to schedule a training, visit I F I O C dot com. Until our next communication solution podcast, keep changing the world.