Are you a MI Geek or Newbie?

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Welcome to today’s episode of The Communication Solution podcast with Casey Jackson, John Gilbert and Danielle Cantin. We love talking about Motivational Interviewing, and about improving outcomes for individuals, organizations, and the communities that they serve. 

Today we are talking about the differences between the MI Geek and the Naive Brain in Motivational Interviewing.

About This Episode

• Reviewing the differences between MI Geek and the Native Brain
• Developing MI curriculum
• Core components and basic skills for a naive brain
• Research and the constant state of learning
• Active listening and perspectives 
• Training in different situations
• Different skill levels
• Approaching different situations
• Empathy and listening without judgment
• Dr. William Miller and his books
• The Dunning-Kruger effect 
• Stages of learning
• Human dynamics and effective communication
• Emotional intelligence
• And so much more!

You don’t want to miss this one! Make sure to rate us or share this podcast. It would mean so much to us!

Thank you for listening to the communication solution. This podcast is all about you. If you have questions, thoughts, topic suggestions, or ideas, please send them our way at casey@ifioc.com. For more resources, feel free to check out ifioc.com. 

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Want a transcript? See below!

Hello and welcome to the Communication Solution Podcast with Casey Jackson and John Gilbert. I’m your host Danielle Cantin. We love to talk about communication. We love to talk about solutions, and we love to talk about providing measurable results. For individuals, organizations, and the communities they serve, welcome to the communication solution that will change your world.

Welcome everyone to the Communication Solution Podcast with Casey Jackson and John Gilbert. They’re both experts in motivational interviewing and we are so excited to have this episode today where we’re gonna dig in a little bit. Casey, I’m curious you help break down the difference between motivational interviewing the MI geek versus the naive brain? Of course I’m raising my hand. I’m the naive brain here, , and you are definitely, you know, the ultimate expert. So well, yeah, and then I can point to John, who’s the MI geek. So it’s just like, it’s perfect. The same room’s, perfect I think the thing that’s fascinating, you know, we’ve touched on this on other podcasts lately.

I’ve been looking at kind of when we continue to evolve curriculum and, and when John and I have done curriculum development, we run into this all the time because the more we learn and the more obsessed we get with it, the more you want to teach people what you’re obsessed with. But there’s something that innately disrespects a naive brain that hasn’t been on the same learning curve that we’ve been on.

So it’s difficult when you develop curriculum because what you want is people to get the same experience. You got that got you intrigued in the first place. You know, the things got me intrigued in my first MI trainings or got John intrigued in his first I trainings was very basic motivational interviewing, just the nuts and bolts of motivational interviewing.

And I think that’s critical for a naive brain that really doesn’t understand what motivational is and what are the core components, what are the basic skills, what’s kind of your strategies involved in that. And what you find is, you know, John has talked about this on PAD podcasts before. When you, when you find that tribe of people within motivational thing that are obsessed with it, it really does take it to a whole different level.

And then, you know, I’m defer to John often. His natural tendency is just to do so much research and his, his curious brain is always drawing from other theories and seeing how they support, and augment motivational interviewing. So when you’re in a constant state of learning with motivational interviewing, because it’s an obsession, because it is, you know, like we’ve talked about a way of being with people, it changes who you are.

It changes how you are in your own life and how you are with other people. . It just becomes this obsession that you can never master and know everything about it because you’re talking about human dynamic. You’re talking about human behavior, and then when you start to add in gender differences and cultural differences and all these aspects that were not intended for motivational interviewing, but as you learn more about it, it’s like how can you ignore those things?

When you’re talking about human interaction, it’s what starts to take that naive brain into this kind of MI geek. , of just being kind of obsessed with how do I change as a human being? How do I help others change? How can I facilitate that process as efficiently and as effectively as possible? And when you’ve been immersed in it for, you know, like I’ve been over it 20 years and, you know, John getting close to that, you know, it’s just like your brain just becomes, it’s what you do, it’s what you love.

It’s you’re obsessed with changing the world, and how can I be more effective at helping my fellow man at being able to do. You get all these complexities when you go back to the naive brain. It’s fascinating because in some ways there’s like for you coming outta the business world, Danielle, There’s, there’s just basic communication skills that you learn in counseling that you do here in business, but you just learn ’em differently, like reflective listening or active listening, or asking good questions or open-ended questions.

So when I’m training people in the business world, it’s kind of reviewing them, but starting to look from a different angle at basic communication technique. And that for me is a naive. . But then when we go to train, maybe a bachelor’s level psychology student, they feel like they already know motivationally because they know how to do reflective listening and open-ended questions, which isn’t motivational, it’s entirety.

So there’s this naive brain that thinks that it already does it naturally because there’s core components in motivational, like empathy, and everybody thinks they’re empathetic. Everybody thinks that they’re good listeners. But when you actually measure, people don’t listen well to listen to the other person.

Even in a training I did today, one of the activities we did is how do you keep your bias outta conversation? And one of the participants said, it was so interesting to listen to my brain not shut up because it has so many opinions as I’m trying to listen. Like I could just feel my brain has so many opinions and it just wants to jump into conversation.

And so people think that they’re good listeners, but they’re not, not in the level that is expressing high empathy. And most people think they’re expressing high. , when you look at what accurate empathy is, the majority of people are not highly accurate in their empathy. They’re sympathetic. There are all sorts of things.

So again, this is this, I think what the, the naive brain thinks. And then as you get into it, you start to understand the different level of skill. The, the last thing I’ll say and then just kind of pop it over to both of you is I, I think why, for me, what’s helped me distinguish naive brain. Am I geek brainer, or kind of that, that level of mastery is why I always revert back to kind of grandma’s recipe as a model of fidelity.

Like I always say, most people in the field of helping have natural skills around, they know how, what flour is. They know what sugar is, they know what butter is, they know how to whip butter and add sugar, you know, and cream that together. But it doesn’t make grandma’s recipe dessert that she makes for Thanksgiving that everybody love.

you know, it’s so, you got the basics, but that doesn’t make it this very specific thing that requires a very specific love and a very specific attention to it. So yeah, we can make chocolate chip cookies, but I always tell people there’s a big difference between biting into a Chipsa hok, that always tastes stale to me, out of a bag or a Mrs.

Fields chocolate chip cookie that just came outta the, you know, outta the oven in the mall. Those, they’re both chocolate chip cookies, but boy, they sure taste different. Even though the majority of the ingredients are exactly the same. So those are the things you start to look at between the naive brain and the kinda the more advanced or just obsessed brain that we can get into with motivational interviewing.

John, what are, what are your thoughts when you listen to that ? Well, there’s so much around w what does it mean to listen to that? Right. Am I listening from the perspective of the listener that’s listening to this? Am I listening to all my thoughts and things I want to jump in with? Am I listening to your reality as your, the best guess at, you know, I could have of your reality as am I listening to Danielles from her angle?

Right. And I think that’s the, the kind of getting to the heart of this even deeper is we tend to. People listening from our perspective about our perspective and what is known as egocentrism, not egotistical, not being, I’m thinking I’m better. It is just we tend to see it or hear it from our perspective, and I think that’s just really important to recognize that that’s normal and natural.

and it’s not inherently wrong, and sometimes that’s what people want. And sometimes it’s more empathic to express that than it is to do a reflective statement that annoys the person. There’s all sorts of components. We had a whole podcast that talked deep about empathy, with, that one wonderful individual from the Social Work podcast, and that was a wonderful episode.

If, if anyone’s listening to any, listen to that one that. Oh, beautiful one. But I just say that Casey, because the thoughts are, what perspective are you listening from and just asking yourself that and, and trying to, be more mindful of that. And it brings in concepts like emotional intelligence, that a lot of people also like to believe, they know a lot about or, or have within them, but there are just components of.

Perspective, are you listening for? How are you conveying when you express yourself? How are you conveying it? Are you conveying it from your mind like I’m doing right now, very my perspective? Or are you trying to convey it in a way that the other person can easily digest it? You know, there’s so many ways of listening and there’s so many ways of thinking about, am I listening this from a naive or newbie per.

Or am I expressing myself? I’m just making a made up spectrum here On one end, is that, or am I expressing myself on the other end of this spectrum from a place of just full on egocentric, MI geek mode. And I feel much more comfortable at that end of the spectrbut different people feel different levels of comfort.

But a lot of the times we got to, if we’re going to be facilitators, teachers, educators, that I continually learn with you, KC. , shift that down, not dumb it down, but shift that spectrum towards being simpler and more effective with what you’re conveying. Like I believe Einstein would talk about the better you understand something, the simpler, essentially you can make it sound.

I believe there was some sort of quote like that. So that’s, those are some thoughts I have, Casey, to what you’re saying that try to give voice to what’s underly. MI geek versus, newbie, you know, perspectives of mi. I think it’s just how much are you focused on your perspective versus someone else’s d Danielle, I, I’m just gonna bounce the ball back to you because I think, you know, what’s your take from the, the, the newer brain to motivational interviewing and coming from a completely.

Different professional world. I mean, your foray into motivational interviewing, what has that been like for you from kind of the understanding of it and then from kind of the basic techniques of it? I’m just curious what, what does your naive brain think of when you’re looking at motivational interviewing?

Well, it’s, I find it really interesting. What I’m gravitating to in, in both of your conversations is, the awareness that the naive brain actually thinks it’s not naive. Hmm. So I’m like, Ooh, that’s good. Because my history, I’ve been in the business world for, for many years, but I had really deep experience in school with psychology.

I went to graduate school. . So I learned of God only knows what I learned, , right? And I, I lodged it in there and I, I got some great ideas about what I think I, you know, reflective listening and, you know, open-ended questions and, and things like that where I’ve tricked myself into thinking, oh, I’m empathetic.

I’m a good listener. I, you know, I’m. , I’m all of these things. And so I think the biggest awareness for me is the humility in it of, oh, I don’t necessarily know everything. I think I know. Wow, and there’s a better way and I can do better. So my naive brain, the newbie approach for me is actually a total joy because I’m a learner by nature.

So I’m like, oh my God, I get to be a student again of. , this brand new thing, this brand new approach of how to help somebody to be there for somebody in a way that just is not public knowledge. Yeah. Of how to interact with somebody and support them. John, you’re brilliant about the perspective. All the different perspectives we approach any situation with, and most often there’s an agenda, even if I’m listening to it from your perspective or my perspective.

I can’t remember all the other options. You said , but I can guarantee you there’s a little bit of an agenda and everything. Yes. And what I learned as a newbie that, attracted me the most was everybody’s dealing with ambivalence. We all do it, which means, oh my God, this is a solution for that. Yes. And also that.

There’s an opportunity to take an agenda out of everything and just help someone find their own way. And to me that’s like a life calling, but I’ve never had the, the tools in the path to actually implement that life mission. Yeah. Yes. So, and I’m so new. I mean, I’m not implementing it. I’d be very dangerous if I did , but what I can tell you is I, what I absorbed from you guys and your trainings.

Is the principles. So for me, the way I would differentiate is, ah, newbie naive brain is embracing and getting excited about the ideas and the principles and the, the core messages. And not necessarily getting into the tactical of I’m not out there actually. , doing sessions or having conversations.

You know, I, it’s so helpful to hear you say that, Danielle, because I think that , even the way you frame that is such a good articulation about the difference between the m the m, the kinda the naive brain and the MI geek brain. Because as a somebody who teaches this and is obsessed with. , you should be having those conversations.

I think when you’re the naive brain, there’s, I think there’s different fa like any learning curve. I think there’re sayings on a learning curve. One, the first part is so many people think they do it naturally. Then they go through a training and understand like components of it, and they’re like, wow, there’s more to this than I thought there was.

Then there’s like, I don’t know if I’m ever gonna get good at this and I probably shouldn’t be using it until I get good at it. So that’s where you’re at on the learning curve, and that’s where John and I look at it and think, oh my gosh, you should be using it because what you’ve. . If, if people wait to be an expert at it before they use it, they won’t use it.

Oh, and the beauty and motivational interviewing, and this is, and when you hear this out loud, Danielle, you’re gonna go, ah, I know that worst case scenario is you’re just highly empathetic with somebody, even if you don’t know truth, the language from there, how, how are you gonna do damage to anyone? By listening to them without judgment.

You, you can’t do damage to somebody by listening to them without judgment and to make sure they feel heard and. , even if you don’t know all the techniques from there. That is, that is one of the most basic things that any intro training to motivational should help people understand is what is high accurate empathy and how do we express it in a way that people feel deeply heard and understood?

You are extremely good at that. . So it’s bringing out those things in you that are such a core component in motivational interviewing. But then there’s a, where you’re out on learning curve is, yeah, I’m not as good as you guys are, so I don’t use it regularly. And it’s like, that’s just not true. You do use it because you, you become more aware of pain.

You’ve talked to me about this in personal conversations with friends of yours. You know how your different, your presence is different around them and how thankful they are in the way that you’re present around them. And you’ve always been that. But now that you see, there’s so much growth potential there, it’s almost like you shy away from it a bit because you feel like, yeah, but I don’t know.

I I’m not good at that. Yeah. It’s like you can’t, I I was not expecting to get called out on this podcast. You are so right. You just nailed it. I am actually holding back cuz I’m like, I can’t be as good as John or Right. Like, how on earth where do I even begin? And I love that message to any newbie out there.

Anyone? Yes. Been totally excited like me. The possibility of the, of this approach. It’s like, just get in there and, and get messy. Do it. Yes. I mean, what’s I love? What’s the worst thing that can happen? I’m not gonna create, you’re highly empathetic. Somebody. What are they gonna start? Because you’re highly empathetic.

It’s not, you’re gonna have to damage to them for that. They’re just gonna feel heard and understood, which is such a gift as you were talking, cuz you know, people know my brain just works in pictures. What I was thinking about that’s so fascinating is. On one hand, on one hand, we’re not talking brain surgery, and on one hand we’re talking about something that’s almost more complex than brain surgery.

So I think that’s the part about the difference between the naive brain and the complex brain around motivational interviewing is it’s not brain surgery. You’re not gonna hurt somebody. Then what struck me is you’re doing, you’re doing human life interaction from this place of kind of good magic. So you’re not gonna do damage with good magic.

So except there’s technique behind it and strategy behind it, but the intention and the embodiment of motivational ring is so human-centered. It’s so when you, if your intention is there, it comes from such a heart of wanting to help, but in a way that the data shows as the most effective way to operate from the heart of wanting to help.

I think that when you step back and watch the master is what? Wizardry and their proficiency around it. That’s where people talk about, you know, the MI mind trick or the MI Jedi mind tricks. And it’s like, and that’s, that’s even missing it. It looks so amazing when you see people highly skilled at it because it’s like, did you see what just happened in that interaction?

Now, this person’s world has shifted forever because of this conversation. But this is where I’m on this mantra lately with people is there is a Chas. Between being manipulative and being mindful and strategic. You don’t manipulate anyone in motivational interviewing. The intention is not to get someone to do something.

That’s what John’s always talking about, that fix it or the broke, like that’s not what MI is about as fixing something that’s broken or looking at people as fundamentally flawed. It starts from a place of, like we’ve said before, every human being on any given day struggles with a massive amount of ambivalence about multiple things in.

And if you can keep them focused on who they are and who they wanna be when they grow up, all you’re doing is what would you do that would align up with who you wanna be when you grow up? If you could be the best version of yourself, what would that look like? And now look at this situation you’re struggling with in this relationship or this job.

What would align with that? So it’s just bringing out the best in people, which is not I, I think what’s what I love about training mi, when people hear me say it, it sounds so. , it sounds so like I’ve heard this a hundred times. Why does it just sound different this time? And then this is where John and I geek out is because then you can deconstruct all the metrics and technique and skill around that and know, wow, to make the very specific Mrs.

Fields cookie or to make this phenomenal French chocolate souffle, it takes a lot of technique. Even if the one that fell tastes great because there’s lots of chocolate and go in. It doesn’t taste the same as the one that fully rises and you crack into that, and that’s just like, wow, that’s just otherworldly.

So they’re both good. It’s just, I think that’s the obsession. I love listening to you talk about it because you’re as obsessed with motivation from naive brain perspective, like I don’t have enough time to learn it all. As I am from somebody who’s been in it for 20 years, like I feel like such a newbie because it’s like there’s so much to study that I’ve not even, there’s so many articles I haven’t even read.

There’s so many supporting theories that I haven’t read. That’s why I’m friends with John, because John has read every single theory and book and article and . That’s definitely not true. So then I can just talk to John about it. This is John where , where I do wanna jump in is, related to that is just.

absolute amount of like learning that can be involved and continually be involved. And then also Casey, to what you just brought up, like one of those research articles that I know you’ve read, is with the eight stages of learning, motivational interviewing, and the eighth stage being when not to utilize it.

And we have a podcast that will be getting into that and personal life and other things. But the reason I say that is, There’s a certain, almost like. That Dr. Bill Miller talked about in his plenary note, at one of the recent motivational interviewing Network of trainers conferences, where on one end of the arc is the simplicity of something and just these lovely Mrs.

Field cookie recipe and all these incredible metaphors you use that help make it. Digestible and simple and accessible. And then even talking with other MI geeks like, Sue ecmo, who, is a wonderful coach and I look up to another me member of mit, she’ll, as she’s coached many various people in organizations.

The reason I bring her up is in this learning curve. As Dr. Miller talks about it in his books, it can be seen that it’s so simple. You think that you do it already, like you were talking about Casey. This is something that happens where we’re unconscious of our unconscious and it’s, you could call it a blind spot, is a simpler way to put it.

Right? But the idea is we think we know. And another fancy term for that is the Dunning Krueger effect. We think we know and then, and I have. Danielle, you have it, Casey, you have it listener. You probably almost certainly have it. And we all think once we learn a little bit about something, we know more than we do, and then we are good people, we mean well.

We all believe that. And so Danielle, of course you believe you’re empathic. Of course you believe you can do reflective listening because that’s how we see ourselves to be healthy humans, right? And so it’s a natural part of being human, this early simple part of learning. So, But then it’s like mind blowing.

This is so deep. And then Casey, to your point, it gets to a point, you might not ever master it, but it becomes this thing that you can continually learn. But there are certain tenets that you just keep paying attention to, and that’s where it starts to become simple again. But how do you know when you’re there?

I don’t know. Other than measuring someone’s communication like you were getting. But there is this arc that I wanted to point to of staying humbled to growing and learning in your mi, and also staying humble that MI is not always the best thing and that it’s not a panacea to fix everything and that it’s this lovely thing that was designed as a pre-treatment and way of being with someone.

And there are times that you do other things and use, use other stuff. And I wanted to end with that cuz as in my geeks, it can. Potentially a religion or something like that. . And to also recognize it’s the tenets of care and compassion we care about and MI helps us access that. And it’s not about mi, it’s that MI embodies all these things we value and believe in.

I just thought I would add that for. , adding to that arc of humility that you were talking about, Danielle, or that was pretty you, you know, and John the, another, you know, so many analogies I use, but another analogy I use with this that I think help, that really adds illustration to what you just brought up is what I always want people to understand is, yes, after over 30 years, 35 years in social work, it’s the most effective skill I’ve ever learned in my entire.

and I’ve said this and I know people don’t, they probably don’t believe it in real time, but it’s true for me. If somebody laid down a million dollar check with my name on it and said, you can cash this check for million dollars, but you need to surrender everything in your life that’s MI related and all your knowledge about mi, I wouldn’t take the miche, I wouldn’t take the million dollar check.

It’s not my, the quality of my life, I just wouldn’t take the, I just wouldn’t take them. It’s not worth losing everything that I’ve. that having this perspective is brought to my life. That money couldn’t, there’s no, there’s no price tag for it, honestly. And with that being said, what I also tell people is I cannot build a house with a Swiss Army knife.

So you, everything you need to do to help people in their world, all the things we do to help people, you can’t build an entire house with motivational. . But I equate it to a Swiss Army knife because I use it more than anything else. When I’m building a house during the day, I’m cutting string. I’m, you know, using it as a screwdriver.

I’m using it for different things. But then there’s other tools that are more effective if I’m building an entire house. But that Swiss Army knife never leaves my pocket because I use it more than anything else throughout the day because it’s so useful in so many situations. So that’s kinda that eight stages of learning of, to, you know, moti motivational learning.

You know, you’re gonna use electric drills sometimes cuz it’s way more effective than the. Screwdriver, you know, on the end of a, a Philip or on the end of a, Swiss Army knife. So I think that’s what you start to realize that it is. So, and people see that. It’s like, it’s, why wouldn’t you use it for everything?

I mean, this is just, it’s, it’s, it’s magical, it’s mysterious, it’s effective, it’s efficient, it’s, we can measure it and it’s a spirit and it’s a way, and it’s all these things. And, and so I think, yeah, that’s what makes it a Swiss army knife, like the best Swiss army knife there. and I’m not gonna build an entire house with a Swiss Army knife.

Like that would be exhausting. And it’s not the most efficient and effective thing to do. So I think that helps put it in perspective as well too, that yeah, it’s this amazing skillset because what are we talking about? We’re talking about human communication. We’re talking about human dynamic and human brain.

So who wouldn’t wanna learn how to com communicate more effectively with their kids, or with their spouse or their partner, their friends, or their family? It’s like who wouldn’t wanna com communicate more effectively? in a way, measurably that we can have a profound impact on outcomes for people that are trying to change behavior.

And I think that’s where it takes kinda this larger funnel and funnels into, okay, what is the point of motivational interviewing? And I think that’s where I think as the learning brain, like the naive brain looks at motivational interviewing, I think it looks at it as beyond a Swiss army. It’s like, oh my, like this is.

this could solve all world problems. Like this could, like this could solve divorce, it’ll solve all parenting issues. It’ll solve everything. Because if we’re just this way with each other, it would solve the political issues in the world it would solve. And it’s just like, and when your brain starts to get, it’s like, oh my gosh, it really could.

And so I think that’s where it gets into the way of being that spirit behind it and then bringing it back down to, and it’s a Swiss Army knife, and so it can’t solve everything, but it’s just, it’s something you wanna have in your pocket at all. God, what a great analogy. I love that Swiss Army knife.

And now I’m, I’m extra humble with my naive brain cuz I’m like, oh yeah, I’m one of those. I believe this can like completely change the world and fix everything. And yet is, is geeks and experts. You guys are like, Yes. And . Yes, and glad you said Cause I believe yes. And I believe yes and absolutely yes. And absolutely there’s this reality of what you guys do and, and see and it, what I admire most watching you, you guys, is how you’re out there training people and organizations every day on how to use this to improve the outcomes.

In their company, whatever they’re looking to achieve. It’s just filled with so much respect and it’s like my naive brain is like, woo, change the world. Whereas I see you guys going, let’s, let’s help this one person. Yeah. In this one group. And that’s what I’ve seen you guys do is I don’t care if it’s 25 people in a training or 50, it’s like you’re speak, every individual feels like you’re speaking to.

and so you’re able to dial in and go, oh, this one’s a little bit more naive of a brain. This one’s a little more advanced so that everybody feels like fed during a training or connected or whatever word I’m, I’m searching for here. But it’s, it’s really incredible and a very, very humbling. . Well, and you can see why we’re obsessed doing it.

Because how is that not fulfilling? I mean, who, that’s a career. It’s a career of helping people help people. It’s like what? That’s, that’s where my brain goes into a pure, naive brain. Well, and and to that too, there’s this just sense of what’s your intention, just like we talk about with the motivational and incompetency assessment, what’s your intention with an MI geek?

Do you want to geek out? . That’s one. One intention, and that’s part of what this podcast is about. Another part of it is speaking in a way and digesting things in a way that if you’re new to this whole motivational and viewing stuff, more so than like at it for years, how do we. Frame and listen from that perspective.

And depending on the group, on the person, it’s just that awareness, that emotional intelligence, the empathy that I continually learn, how to have more of from Casey, but just to recognize that there is, with new learning, there’s a different perspective. being immersed and just starting there. That’s why when teaching, guitar lessons, there’s even research to show, turning your guitar around and trying to use a left-handed guitar if you’re right-handed to be a teacher with it, brings you back to a naive perspective when you are teaching and it, it’s that humility and empathy and awareness that seems to be at the heart of what we’re talking about.

And how do you do that when you have, a mind? That I go through that might not work like other people’s minds. It, it is a certain level of work and investment I’m finding on how to go about that. Versus being more in the comfort zone of how your mind works and speaking more egocentrically versus speaking more empathically.

And I think there’s a crossover, Casey, that you are wonderful at for new. thinking that I think everyone could agree to that’s listening to this. You’re illustrative with metaphors. It’s illustrative. It illustrates with with sort of pictures, almost like storytelling is like that. I’m sure we could improve our messaging around.

It’s just very engaging and it helps. And I tend to be more descriptive and analytically speaking that that’s illustrative, right? I can add a label to it, but I can’t necessarily come up with a metaphor. But the whole idea is when and where do you use these strengths or the business strengths that you have, Danielle, and it’s just.

There’s a certain level of awareness and recognition of a newbie brain to whatever it is we’re talking about, versus a more immersed brain. And I think that’s just important no matter it being MI but especially it being MI if you’re here listening to this . Well, and what I love is, you know, it’s irrespective where you’re out on the spectrum.

It is a journey and it, it’s a wonderful, wonderful, growthful experience for naive or for an expert. It’s just, I’ve never met somebody. fell into the MI trap and just didn’t love every minute of being caught in it and, and wanting to wind their way through it and, and see what comes out the other side.

It’s just a wonderful experience wherever you’re at. The metaphor of the visual I see with that is regardless of where you are on that continuum of learning, we’re all climbing that focus mountain. Oh yeah. It’s very much true. Yeah. Awesome. Very true. Thanks so much, John and Case. Awesome. Thank you.

Pleasure listeners. Thank you so much. Any ideas Future podcast, don’t hesitate to reach out casey if ioc.com and of course you can check us out@ifioc.com. We’ll catch you on the next episode. Thank you. Bye bye.

Thank you for listening to the Communication Solution Podcast with Casey Jackson and John Gilbert. As always, this podcast is about empowering you on your journey to change the world. So if you have questions, suggestions, or ideas, Send them to CASEY@IFIOC.com. For more information or to schedule a training visit if ioc.com until our next Communication Solution podcast keeps changing the world.