Motivational Interviewing, Dr. William Miller, and the Business World

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About This Episode

Welcome to today’s episode of The Communication Solution podcast with Casey Jackson and John Gilbert. We love talking about Motivational Interviewing, and about improving outcomes for individuals, organizations, and the communities that they serve. 

Today we are talking about Motivational Interviewing in the business world with a financial perspective. We talk about the evolution of Motivational Interviewing and how to share The Communication Solution that will change your world.

About This Episode

• Ethics behind motivational interviewing being in the business world 
• The Empath Conference at which Casey is a keynote speaker, interviewing the founder of Motivational Interviewing, Dr. William Miller
• Dr. Miller and Motivational Interviewing’s role in for profit business
• The evolution of Motivational Interviewing
• Developing a leadership structure and a management structure and a workforce structure that is driven by vision, mission, and values
• Metrics and measurable results
• Productivity rates
• Bias against the corporate world
• Training outcomes
• Industry differences
• Being mindful and aware of how communication impacts the people around you
• Informed choices
• And so much more!

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For those who are new to this podcast, the MICA is the Motivational Interviewing Competency Assessment. For more information or to schedule a training visit https://www.ifioc.com/.

Thank you for listening to The Communication Solution. This podcast is all about you. If you have questions, thoughts, topic suggestions, or ideas, please send them our way at casey@ifioc.com. For more resources, feel free to check out ifioc.com. 

Want a transcript? See below!

Welcome back everyone. And do we have a podcast for you today? It is going to be an interesting, provocative one, especially for those of you, that are interested in MI in the world of potentially business. I know I said it, so I’m not the one to introduce this out.

Casey, you are our lovely director and you will have a lot of perspectives on this. And Danielle, you come from a background with perspectives on this, so if you wouldn’t mind giving us, Danielle, a sense of  where you’re coming from with your curiosity. Thanks John. I’m excited. I was re-listening to the podcast that we did about quiet quitting and the insights that you and Casey shared, and that really spurred another conversation I thought we could touch on here.

I come from the corporate world. The business world and from a branding and marketing perspective. And so what I do is I help organizations dig in to who they really are and bring it to life in a brand campaign in, in their brand. And the biggest struggle I’ve had in my life is getting that alignment with, we can say who you are all day long, but are you really walking the talk?

So as I was listening to that, that awesome podcast about quiet, quit. And maybe think about what you are doing with your training, with the communication solution. Yes. How you are out there working with for profit companies, and businesses who typically have a financial  perspective. They’re like, they wanna grow, they wanna produce, and it’s like, You’re bringing this training, you’re bringing motivational interviewing and your expertise with this communication solution to organizations, to leadership teams, to founders.

These innovative companies are saying, We need this. And they’re kind of stepping in. And I’d love to have a conversation around what you’re seeing, how that’s contributing to quiet, quitting or, or just the growth of a business and that role. Cause I like John, your reaction was like motivational interviewing and business, you know, so there’s, there’s a lot of thoughts there.

So I don’t know if that’s a good kickoff, but that’s what I would love to discuss today. Great. It, well, it when John said that, It’s so funny because when you say that, Danielle, I can feel my own writing reflex. And I think be, Well. I know being raised in the MI world, there has been, Less than positive  feedback about that I had done some work for corporations or for businesses and it, it’s something that I, John and I talked about so much about the ethics behind it of motivation being in the business world and how does that work and, This mutual accountability, Always running the lens through is our behavior in line with our values is our behavior in line with our values of I F I O C, like we talked about in the Quiet Quitting podcast.

This was never starting. This company was never about income for me. It was about how do you share a message or how do you share a, a, a technology or a skill that will improve outcomes through this communication solution through motivational interviewing. The reaction tends to be, No, this is for healthcare, this is for behavioral health.

Don’t give this magic KO to businesses who are gonna exploit it and not make it mi anymore. And so that was just something we were so hyper conscious of and was so fascinating in this, cuz this just happened for you and I, Danielle, we were, John, you don’t know about this, but Danielle was  on a kind of a fly on the wall on a conference.

I mean the Empath Conference. I’m gonna be, a keynote. And, and I’m gonna be co-presenting with Dr. William Miller. And Daniel actually talked to me after this Zoom call with, with Bill and and she’s like, Okay, I just have to ask what’s the deal because. Dr. Miller had seemed to have no issue with motivation being in the business world, and you’ve always been so skittish around that and had such a reaction to it.

And she goes, So I just like was, Huh? Wait a second. Bill Miller, who’s the creator of mi, he didn’t seem to have a big beef with this whole thing that you seem to be anxious about. I, I think what strikes me about that, Danielle, even more since I’ve thought about that, is partially the evolution of motivational interviewing.

When I first started, you know, I always would only work with, you know, non non-profits, government agencies, you know, all those, those that. Zone and then  got bumped up over and over against, against the corporate world and about, okay, can I do this with integrity? Can I keep motivational link fidelity based and not get sucked into how do they bastardize this for profit?

And, and not make it mi but call it mi like I was so hypervigilant. So I think partly that, so much of the pressure and. Heat I could feel from people within the MI world that heard about what I was doing. I think it was a good thing to keep me on track with. How do you keep behavior in line with values for myself and then with organizations I work with.

What I could not escape is if people are genuinely gonna follow their vision, their mission, their values. I can train any organization or corporation if the executive leadership wants their behavior to be in line with their vision, mission, values, how. Embody that, how you actualize that, how you bring that to fruition for me, partially, fundamentally and partially is through how you  communicate, which is the whole function of motivation thing.

It’s the communication solution that will change your world. So for me, what I look at then is when I talk to executive leadership about how does this help us, My very pointed, not only question, Put the onus on them is, do you genuinely want your organization to be in a line with your vision, mission, and value statement?

So re reassess it and make sure that’s what you want, because I can help your workforce get in alignment with that if that’s what you really want. If it’s about bottom line, this is Danielle. When you sat in with, Sunshine Health, it’s like, if it’s about bottom line, Then you need to put that in your mission statement.

And this goes back to what we talked about in the Quiet Quitting podcast, what John had brought up about the workforce now starting to interview their employer before they take a job. So they want to know, is this really the way my job’s gonna be? Is this really the kind of company or, I know that it’s very much a, a millennial,  Gen Z perspective in terms of what do you do and why are you doing it?

And do I wanna be part of that? What we can do on the communication side of it with what we teach and, and, and provide structure and, and assistance around is how do you develop a leadership structure and a management structure and a workforce structure that is, is driven by vision, mission, and values.

What I’ve seen, and I think this is. What piqued your curiosity in the beginning when you and I had first met Danielle, is when I’d shared that there were companies I’d worked with, like in senior living whose, that they had attributed the work with motivational interviewing the work with me as what took them from that kind of 85% occupancy rate to a hundred percent occupancy rate, or a 90, you know, 8% occupancy rate and a paid waiting list.

That was, I knew that that piqued your interest. Like that was kind of a fascinating construct. So,  so what, you know, I wanna toss it a little bit back to you in terms of, as I blurred all this stuff out, what’s, what’s percolating through your brain? As you look for that kinda side Yeah. The metrics are what blows blow me away because every business I’ve worked with, every ceo, every great leader is looking for measurable results.

Yes. And until I met you, I was like, this is actually documented. It’s evidence based. It’s, it’s an incredible, path to help these leaders get to where they wanna go, with integrity. And that’s why I like what you just said, is the first thing I. , Is this really what you want? I can help you do this, but don’t fool yourself.

Is it really what you want? Yes. If you’re gonna change the game and say No, it’s about I’m gonna hire you and we need to see X, Y, or Z happen, You know, financially that’s a different conversation. What we’ve seen in, in the case studies, That financial piece comes Yes, but it,  it can never be the motivating factor ex Oh, Danielle, That is, that is so critical, and I don’t think people understand that.

It’s, what you just said is that can’t be the mo motivating factor. The only way this works, I mean this is to me where the, where it’s so fascinating is the only way it works is if the behavior is to be focused on the vision, mission, values. . You can’t say, Oh, we’re gonna get to our bottom line by implementing this.

If it’s about the bottom line, using that vision, mission, values to get to the bottom line. It’s like, o this, It just, it will not work. I’ve, I’ve watch, I’ve never heard you say that, where you’re like, If that’s the case, put that in your vision, your mission values. Yeah. And at least you hear in alignment.

That’s exactly it. And, and for me, why this is. Real and potent. It’s, it honestly is not a, it’s not that far of a, of a, a step off of, in  the, when I was as a therapist, what I used to tell parents and relationships, like people in relationship or marriages when they’d work with me. If you’re doing this for your partner, this is not gonna.

It cannot be for your partner. It has to be for you. And if you think, Okay, I’ll do it for me, if it helps my relationship, that’s not gonna work. It has to be, you have to do it for you. And if you do it a hundred percent for you, it is going to help the health of the relationship. But if you’re, if there’s any part of your brain that’s like, Okay, I’ll do it for the relationship, it, it will not sustain itself in the.

It’s the same thing in the parenting. If it’s like, Okay, I’m gonna do this so I can be a better parent, or so I can get my way, or I can do it this way, it will not work in the long run. So it’s the same thing in the, in the, in a business world is if you’re doing it for a different reason, but you’re gonna be, this is gonna be our facade that we’re gonna operate from, it will not work in the long run.

Then when we circle back around it, like you have been so fascinated with data  points for me, why this is. Potent. I mean, the reason why MI is an evidence-based practice is because there is so much data around it. There is, if you follow the technology, if you follow Grandma’s recipe, if you stick to fidelity, outcomes improve.

I think of, you know, I’ve shared before, like the data around when John and I worked on a huge project, with employment services people that became skilled at this technique. Productivity, and this is way, it can take any productivity number, but their rehabilitation rates, people going back into the workforce nationally, the average was around kind of 40 two-ish to 50 two-ish percent nationally of for, for productivity of people going back.

So about 50% of your caseload, approximately people that were measurably skilled measur. Which meant that they not only went through the training, but we could actually measure to see if they had the skill set. People that were measurably, measurably skilled  at motivational interviewing, they had a productivity rate at around 78 to 82%.

Like that is right, that this is what I know blows your mind. I, Okay. That’s a data point. Had nerd, it’s. It, it’s just, so that’s just, and that’s a, that’s a practitioner who is, their productivity goes from around a 50% ish to about an 80% ish productivity. And this is helping human beings with disabilities get back into the workforce.

Like that. That is a monumental difference on that 80% of your people are getting employed versus 50%. Yeah. Just based on a, a skill set and, you know, then we jump over to law enforce. And to have a profound, again, measurably skilled at it. Not that they went through training, but training and measurably skilled at it.

People that are law enforcement trained and measurably skilled at it, they have a profound reduction in use of force. Like over a 40% reduction in use of force like that  is profound difference in human life. So I think this is why it, for me, it is about the communication solution side of it. It is about the fidelity to the model of it.

And if you look from that perspective, this is where I think I came to the resolution of just being startled that Bill Miller was like, Yeah, if it’s effective, it’s effective, or just trying to affect outcomes and this technology can affect outcomes. It, it, it strikes me that what I ha back in the day, what I had felt, which.

Why is there bias against the corporate world if it’s not about selling a product? If it’s about helping people get to what they need to find is no different than me trying to see if somebody needs substance use treatment or to manage their diabetes differently. There’s, there’s, we don’t have the market on humanity in behavioral health and he.

That in the corporate world, there are products out there that really are meant to improve the quality of life. And Senior Livy was a low hanging fruits. It was like,  well, of course the ultimate intention is to improve the quality of life for older adults. Mm. Not just to, you know, sell them a condo, you know, and that’s two different perspectives.

Sell them a condo is a different vision, mission of values. Then we just wanna improve the quality of life and enrich, provide life enrichment for older adults. Yeah. I’m gonna jump in here. Oh, go ahead, Daniel. Okay. I was just gonna jump in here cuz this is something that’s been, kicking around my mind in this discussion is from the upfront thing of talking with, Dr.

Miller to now what you’re talking about, Casey, It’s what, it’s seemingly also what’s the impact of this organization. So you had particular conversations with one of those organizations you were just talking about, about would they even use it, and we’ve talked about this in other podcasts, if you use this way of treating people, if their outcomes didn’t improve or things went down, and so long as they agreed to that being true for the very sake of how they’re treating people, then you agreed to that ethic of treating people that way.

There’s also something to be said of Bill Miller on record. To say something to the degree of not wanting to work with diamond selling companies that called him up to work in that particular area. So I would imagine there’s more nuance in, in that of what are we talking about when we’re talking about business or for profit?

There’s also the podcast we got into of like, can you ever be completely neutral in Equa boys? And we can, we don’t need to open that can, but the whole reason I mention it is, What you’re alluding to there is, that there’s always gonna be some outcome involved. The helping profession tends to be cleaner and tends to have a little more altruism in some of those things, but there’s also a certain level of still being.

Possibly biased to getting certain kinds of outcomes. So what are those outcomes? What is the impact  of more occupancy? What is the impact of people with disabilities getting more jobs? What are you contributing to with training MI in this particular industry? That seems to really matter for some reason, to, for, for being clear if you are gonna bring it in to a particular industry.

You know, John and I, what struck me when you said that is, again, I keep thinking, my brain loves looking historically and a trend. And what I think of is, again, when I first learned motivational in the, you know, late eighties as an addiction counselor, it was very specific to that population and the funding streams were different now.

So I think, I think you’re gonna be more hard press. In behavioral health and healthcare that, you know, we can say was more altruistic. And I think that’s why a social worker goes into that field. But I can tell you now, it is based on profit and risk, because it  is driven by insurance and funders. So behavioral and health, healthcare is no different than the corporate world at this point in time in our culture.

It is about the bottom line. Literally, I can call up any behavioral health agency right now and they are all gonna be having a meltdown right now. I can call anyone anywhere in the country and they’re gonna have a be having a meltdown over their productivity and their loss because they can’t get their numbers up.

And we have to hire people. They can see more people on more a regular basis if we’re gonna be able to hit our bottom line. That is no different than any other industry that has a sales component to it because it’s driven by finance. And before when things were funded differently, it wasn’t driven by finance, it was, it was driven by altruistic reasons, but that was also 40 years ago.

Things have changed and so the, you cannot get a credit card or a piece of paper to slide the difference between healthcare, behavioral health and the corporate world. Right now, you can’t get a, a piece of paper to slide between the two of them. They are so enmeshed.

Yeah. I just listening to you guys, I, I really agree, Casey. it. You know, to your point, John, it’s look at the leader, look at the leader of the organization and what they genuinely want, whether it’s, you know, for profit or non-profit. It’s like what are you really trying to achieve and what are you trying to create?

And if you really do wanna get in line with your vision, mission, and values, the communication solution can help. Motivational interviewing can help. I’m. Personally, very grateful, to have sat in on that call with you and Dr. Miller, and to see that shift and have that conversation around motivational interviewing and its role in for profit business.

Something that strikes me as I listen to how you started is your commitment to Fidelity. And John, I get that sense from you as well. You guys are experts. The years that you have under your belt, the expertise that you bring to the.  I think can only come from that level of commitment to fidelity.

Yes. And what is now opening up, which I also appreciate, is you have all of these years of fidelity of this expertise and now you’re bringing it to an organization who may not ever take it to fidelity. But, oh my God. Will these tools, will these trainings not help improve somebody’s li life lives help improve lives?

Yes. That’s what keeps me excited. I think you guys did a podcast about that, where it was like, what if you only, or maybe it was your monthly membership call. What if you only have five minutes? Even mental health workers, they only get five minutes with a a client. It’s like, what if you can actually change a life in just one by using one tool in one?

and, and to me, what I think of Danielle when you say that, when I distill it down even further, when you take that five minutes, is  where, is there a point in your life that being more mindful and aware of your communication, how it impacts the people around you is not value added? for any of us to be more mindful about how are my words affecting this brain and is it leading to a positive outcome or negative outcome?

How? How is that not, Why wouldn’t I wanna learn that? Why wouldn’t I wanna master that? I think this is the thing for me in my relationship with you, you know, coming to if F I O C is, I just want people to have access to that because it is profound. It has a profound impact on personal life. It has a profound impact.

Cultural life. It has a profound impact on, you know, family. It just, it just has so much profound impact. If we have an awareness and I, oh my gosh, here’s another podcast coming outta my brain already. , is I just think what with where the world is at right now and all the, the, such a strong sense of disempowerment, of just people  feel so disempowered and so disenfranchised, right?

That the, I’ve always said this in training, the one thing you have control over is what comes outta your mouth. That is one, that is one thing in your life you have control over. So do you have any cognition around what is happening, when it comes outta your mouth, why it’s coming outta your mouth, and what impact it’s happening having?

And if you adjust that, you can. Get to a better outcome in your own life. And this again, is why it’s so translation for me from individual and organizational change. It’s from a, that micro level of an n of one to a macro level, to a meso level in terms of, you know, the change can be so profound based on what comes out of my mouth.

That is fascinating to me. Like I’ll never get bored. I will study this the rest of my entire life. I mean, it’s just profoundly fascinating to me that I have the control to be able to be that aware, that mindful of how I communicate, that I can change outcomes within an organization that I work within.  I can change whether or not I can retain people in my workforce by how I communicate.

Like that’s one thing I have control over in this crazy world that feels like we don’t have control over. It’s really interesting for me as you’re talking through that, Casey, because I think of, you know, Danielle, your background in, and I don’t know it to the degree you could, you could voice anything and correct me where I’m wrong, but just ads and marketing and, and brand imaging.

That at a certain point, psychology has been used to influence people, which is a very, you know, dirty word and, and what have you. It’s been used in that world to influence people for certain outcomes. So KC to your point, there’s been a lot invested in closing sales or different things that I think there’s a natural aversion, especially in the MI world, to the very inherent conflict of.

But that you were getting that earlier,  maybe there is more conflict of interest in helping professions than we think. But also, before you finish that thought is what I wanna connect with people is, this is where I’m starting to bridge those gaps, is what’s the difference between closing the sale and getting them into treatment, or getting them to take their medication or getting them to do X or Y or.

Because we think it’s in their best interest. That’s where it becomes conflated is because then it’s a matter of this is not, what the vision is, is not how do we make people or get the sale. It could be for some organizations or corporations, but I, there’s no variation for me between how do we get them to buy this versus how do we get them to take their medication, or how do we get them to sign up for inpatient treatment, or how do we get them to, It’s.

I think that’s a mentality, but I just wanted to throw that in there as you were saying it, cuz I, I want people to understand that difference. Yeah. Well to that point it’s what’s the potential impact and you’re, you’re getting at, even if it’s a healthy or positive, depending how  you’re defining that impact, is it coming from a hierarchical, this is good for you, so therefore I can use a, a method of communicating that.

Get you to buy in or influence you into this thing that, I or the research would show is best for you. And so there is this interesting context of like, say with the occupancy in that whole world, we didn’t speak specifically to some of the, the specifics there, but it deals with. Healthy outcomes and that the research would support healthy outcomes with more occupancy.

And I would, I just want to give voice to that because, just because that’s true, you could then try to sell people on doing this thing that you think is best for them, is kind of a, a, a way. Or you could try to altruistically influence them to do what’s best for them. But either way, what you’re getting at is how do you have the  conversation?

You know, as we’ve talked about before, as much from equi poise that helps them make an informed choice. Getting their behaviors aligned with their values. That could be a healthy option, would be this occupancy or be this sort of a thing. And so I think it’s the very. Intention of walking into the conversation that you’re talking about and how much there’s this hierarchy and how much there’s this pejorative nature to it.

Even if it is this thing that the researcher otherwise would show is healthy for the person, that doesn’t mean you need to get them to do it. It means you might explore it with that on the table with this way of treating them. Seems like the kind of 10,000 foot view way to talk about it that I’ve, I.

John, for me, this is why motivational interviewing is the golden thread through any one of those industries. Private for-profit, non-profit, doesn’t matter. The golden thread is not only the communication method, it’s the fidelity of motivational because it gets down  at the core. The crux of it for me is that you’re helping people resolve their ambivalence and at that point, Everyone, you’re empowering them to have informed choice.

It’s what that is. The gold standard in healthcare is informed choice. It’s not making them do it. It’s that their brain can see viable options and then you support their autonomy that they get to choose what’s best for them. That’s the golden thread for me in the corporate world, is just give them informed choice and if that product and help them resolve their ambivalence, and if that product improves the quality of their life and they want.

That is value added, but it’s not that we’re making them or selling them or pushing them or whatever it is. But I’ve always said, if you’re using mi, you shouldn’t have to sell anything. You just need expert marketing. People just need to be aware and work through their ambivalence, and if you have an exceptional product or a product that’s value added, then people will opt for a valuable product, whether it’s treatment, , whether it’s medication.

Or whether  it’s a, a place to live. I mean, just it’s, that to me is the, the golden thread of how do you help people resolve ambivalence in an empowering way and how much value added that is to a community. Or to a treatment center or to a corporation. I mean, that to me, that’s how you weave it together.

And, and as we’re, we’re bringing it to a close today, what came, came to mind that, cuz there’s just so much more to potentially get into here, is motivation evoked informed choice. It seems that there’s something beyond. Giving people information and education that we know from the research, from people’s own.

Anecdotally, it’s not just about the information, it’s about exploring these things out loud in a certain kind of a space, in a certain kind of way of treating people. And that, that’s really important. And I think that’s different than what people think of when they think of informed choice. Let me just tell you how it.

Or the information, and then you’ll walk away making an informed choice.  It’s so beyond that with mi, that it’s in relation information and education in relation to motivation and potential, what ifs and that explorative, psychologically safe place to discover that. So I just wanted to throw that out, that that’s different than maybe more traditionally defined informed choice.

But that being said, I wanted to see Danielle, Casey, anything else you wanted to add as we’re bringing it to a. I, I wanted toss it to Danielle, Danielle’s the one who brought the question up, so I wanted to wrap up with kind of where her brain is at from all that. Yeah, I just, I could listen to you guys forever.

I think you’re, you’re brilliant. And, to be able to bring this to the business world means, personally a lot to me because, you know, I equate myself with that helper personality that I could have very easily gone the social worker route, and I didn’t. And so I think there’s a lot more people like me out there in the business world that have that helping heart, that want to contribute and be.

That,  that contribution in the business world. And so if we can tap into them, give them the tools they need to, to grow as a person and to help others, you know, game on for that. And, and the thing that keeps running through my head throughout this whole podcast is a movie that I fell in love with as a child, and it was a miracle on.

34th Street a ho the holiday movie. And I’m like, when I think of you and Dr. Miller talking and, and, and John, your reaction when we started this podcast, I’m like, I’m going to that movie going, Oh yeah, I remember when ma, was it Macy’s that sent them to somewhere else to get a toy? Cuz they didn’t have it.

Yes. And then whoever, you know, money hungry person was like, Ooh, what a great idea. Exploited it when it was a really genuine. Act. Yes. And it’s like, I think we’re always gonna have that situation in play. And maybe what I’m hearing from you, as you’re stepping in and, and working with more and more organizations at a leadership level, there’s an opportunity to  not so much be worried about policing the use of the tools as let’s just make sure people have ’em and, and they will be successful if there’s integrity and of course, The wild.

Oh yes. the wild horse that goes off and says, Let’s exploit this. It’s like, I think that, that that is a truth out there as well. It is. And that you can’t control that part of it. It’s just that they’re not gonna get the outcomes that they’re hoping for. Cuz they’re not following the recipe. They’re just not following Grandma’s recipe.

So it’s just not gonna taste the same. And that’s, that’s viable. And people say, Yeah, this is Grandma’s recipe. And they’ll tasted and go, Yeah, no, this is not Grandma’s recipe . So that’s, that’s exactly it. Danielle. Well, with. Danielle, that’s just, there’s so much there to even potentially get into a whole nother podcast.

So if you’re interested in, expand, having us expand, or you have particular questions about this, I know in the MI world there might be some really interesting thoughts on this podcast. You can send them to Casey, c  a s e y if ioc.com. And we can further expand on it. We can bring you on, we can answer some questions, dive deeper, get into whatever, ethics you want.

We have other podcasts that talk about this. There was the quiet quitting of MI with a business perspective. There’s other things we get into equi, poise and, what is truly equi poise and podcasts on all that stuff that relates to what. Covered today. So, with that, we’ll sign off for today and, Danielle, Casey, thank you so much for your perspectives and hopefully, listener, you had a great time.

We’ll see you next time.