Landscape of Motivational Interviewing

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About This Episode

Welcome to today’s communication solution podcast. We love talking about motivational interviewing, and improving outcomes for individuals, organizations, and the communities that they serve. Today we are talking about the larger picture of the landscape of motivational interviewing, some of the things that are going on in its world, and the future landscape of motivational interviewing. We will also be transitioning some team members. 

For those who are new to this podcast, the MICA is the motivational interviewing competency assessment.

In this podcast we discuss:

• The larger picture and landscape of motivational interviewing
• The field of motivational interviewing has grown or spilled into
• Motivational interviewing is a method of communicating
• Cultural Bias
• Dr. William Miller and his book, “Lovingkindness: Realizing And Practicing Your True Self”
• Measurement and motivational interviewing
• The components of how language works
• Mindset 
• Responsibility and choice
• The Western medical perspective
• Dr. Theresa Moyers and her new book, “Effective Psychotherapy”
• And so much more!

You don’t want to miss this one! Make sure to rate us or share this podcast. It would mean so much to us!

Thank you for listening to the communication solution. This podcast is all about you. If you have questions, thoughts, topic suggestions, or ideas, please send them our way at casey@ifioc.com. For more resources, feel free to check out ifioc.com.

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Transcript of Show – View Below

John: Hello everyone. And welcome back. We have some special podcasts here as we’re going to be talking about this larger picture here of the landscape of motivational interviewing and some of the things that are going on in the world of motivational interviewing. If you’re interested in that more generally, we also are going to be having a transition of some team members that you might be seeing if you’re seeing this, but you’ll be hearing here soon. So, I know Casey, you were going to give some words to that with Tammy and.

Casey: Well, mostly I’m crying internally cause I’m losing Tammy. She, and I’ve been buddies for years and years and years. Actually, Tammy was. Integral to me transitioning and doing some work in senior living which wouldn’t have happened with her role touch mark and just now makes me a little emotional, because there’s this chip little face who would run around high, high energy, usually that a little bag of M&Ms with peanuts in it. And I could get people to do almost anything. Like she was the biggest. Cheerleader not only for training but just for motivational interviewing, just so it’s actually a little hard for me to see her kill a little face right there. To know that we’re going to be transitioning and she’s going on to wonderful things with her family as it continues to grow, in her belly right now. Yeah. And the good news is we’re bringing on Danielle Cantin. Who’s just a. A force to be reckoned with. So just, it it’s an exciting transition. And so, we’re going to hear some of that transition over the next few podcasts as, as Tammy’s, you know moving on to, to other things. And Danielle’s jumping onto the I team. So, it’s exciting, exciting times and a little bit of grieving going on at the same time. so, anything either of you would like to jump in and say, Tammy

Tammy: no. Except I do want to make sure that we cover the actual topic of

Danielle: the podcast at some point

Tammy: I’d like, sorry, the name. So, people know what the name, what we’re focused

Danielle: on today.

John: Yeah. The landscape of motivational interviewing, for sure. Yeah. Yes.

Casey: Sounds good. And Danielle, any thoughts as you’re jumping on?

Danielle: Yes. I’m just so thrilled to be here. And what I think is really interesting is how you and Tammy connected is how we connected is in the senior living space. So, there’s something really interesting about what you’re bringing to the world with this work. And I, I just. Really interesting about the senior living piece and learning everything that you’re doing is really awesome. Tammy. You’ve been wonderful through this transition, so excited to, to pick up the torch that you’ve been carrying and keep moving it forward.

Casey: You know, and I think that’s, it’s, it makes so much sense for the topic for this podcast is about just the landscape of motivational interviewing and what fields, you know, has motivational interviewing kind of grown or spilled into. And, you know, for me, my, my background, most people know my background is in, you know, substance use treatment, chemical dependency, and mental health. Motivation one was born out of the, the addiction world. Dr. Miller, Dr. William Miller. It was his area of expertise as a clinician and as a psychologist, as a researcher and, and. But when data’s good and things are effective for behavior change, you know, word spreads and as research pours out and, and people say, hey, this is effective. Then it, you know, in short order it went from the chemical dependency world, you know, and with just the hand and glove with mental health world and as soon as the number started changing and outcomes improved, then you know, healthcare obviously was perking up and going, hey, we need to learn more about this. And then as soon as you say healthcare, then it’s just like, okay, Bing, Bing, Bing. You’ve got, you know physical therapy, occupational therapy, nutrition, you know, dieticians. It just starts to spread pretty rapidly. I, I think the most fascinating. Like jump gaps that have happened that I’ve been lucky enough to be involved in is, you know, when it started to, like, when I was asked to work in employment services or with corrections or law enforcement, and again, then moving to some of the corporate side in terms of senior living and things like that as well, too. So, it’s just, it’s fascinating. And I think. When I step back and I think, how does that happen? First thing I think is obviously data, you know, when people see data and see research and things are improving, we, people are going to

Casey: dig into that and say, hey, does it relate to us? Can we, can we get those outcomes? How does that happen? I know that’s what John’s fascination when he and I bumped into each other in the beginning was just looking at the data side of it. And wow. There’s a lot of promising practice. In the nutrition world that John works in this looks like a very upcoming promising practice. And hey, I’m fascinated with this, which is where we got so obsessed with fidelity. Like, okay, but we want to do it. Right. And I think that happens with seeing the data, but I’ll say the most profound thing. And I think this is what. Really lean on and take pride in, in IFIOC is that we really do see it as a method of communication. So, I think that still can get taught and I don’t think it’s wrong. But to think of it as a counseling technique. And I think that causes a stutter step. Into moving into other professions, I’m going, Hey, I’m not a therapist, I’m not a clinician. I don’t work people with addiction issues. My job isn’t to do interviewing, I mean, if there’s, if there’s a couple of one-liners, we hear all the time is my job isn’t to do interviewing or how do we motivate them?

Casey: You know, how can I get them motivated to take their medication or follow through on the doctor’s recommendations or stick with treatment? How do we make them do that? Using motivational interviewing? I think there’s so many misperceptions, but when you step back and think, how did it. You know, evolve and those tendrils just continue to reach out into other professions. I think when you break it down, it’s because people do become aware that I can be more mindful about how I communicate. And as soon as you think of that, then my brain goes to, well, if it’s about communication language, then you can see why it starts to spread into other countries and other languages as well too. And this is my obsession about talking about and learning about the human brain because the human brain is a cross-cultural thing. A human brain is a human brain and language and how it hits our ear and hits our brain. Is pretty profound. So that’s my blah, blah, blah. About kind of just some aspects of when I think of the landscape of motivational interviewing and, and kind of what fields is it in and, and how it’s kind of grown. But John, what are some of your, I mean, you you’ve been around this for over 10 years now, so, I mean, what are, what are some things that strike you as I’m rambling on?

John: No As you’re talking, it was going through my mind is this. Sense of communication is one thing, but how culturally relevant that communication usually is meaning it’s, it’s in a container of a culture. And so, as I’ve gotten more and more into motivational interviewing and just life in general, learning how biased by our culture we can be and how it’s been very interesting just to learn all the conscious and unconscious and implicit bias that we bring to the table. And trying to get more aware of that and how, if we’re going to influence someone, how are we doing that from our cultural bias? Right. And so that we’ve, we’ve had other podcasts that have gone deeper into this. One of our more recent ones talking about more first nations people and how this really attunes motivational interviewing really attunes to that sense. Respect and openness and really honoring someone in their talking. And then that seems to be, there seems to be something motivational interviewing that really has transcended across cultures really well, be it the basics of just listening with empathy and expressing empathy, but also other parts of the recipe that have expanded into. You and I, for some of the latest numbers it was something like at least 40 countries and at least I want to say 26 different languages.

John: And so, I remember even seeing or hearing possibly more than that, but the point is that there seems to be something about this method of communicating and the way we’re talking about it as a method, not a T. As a way of seeing a way of being a way of treating that seems to transition to cross cultures. Well, and I think it gives voice also to why Dr. William Miller, one of the creators of motivational interviewing wrote that book, loving kindness of how to treat people humanely from a place of human humane. And so that’s what goes through my mind is just how this seems to be a transcendent way of communicating that isn’t just. specific to one culture, but it seems to resonate with humans more generally for some sort of reason that we’re further discovering, and it’s about change for happier and healthier all at the same time. So, it can be productive, culturally relevant and helpful for people. And there are also times to recognize. Maybe you’re not having a conversation about change, so you’re not going to use all the pieces of motivational interviewing, right. But there’s still a spirit there of supporting choice, curiosity, and equal treatment that really you can bring to the table. No matter the conversation. I think that seems to be getting out of our Western culture and into maybe potentially other cultures as a way of treating people. That’s what was going through my mind.

Casey: You know, John, when you say that, what, what just stands out to me is. I think of how expansive motivational wing is in terms of the MINT, you know, the international motivational wing network of trainers with IME the international conference on motivational interviewing. Like when you’re talking so many different countries, all these people doing research, you know, fascinated with it. So, I think of the, the breadth of motivational, but then when you just brought up Dr. Miller’s name, you know, I, you and I both have, have met Dr. Miller Spend some time with him. He’s just, he, it’s almost inexplicable how kind and how deep and how thoughtful he is.

Casey: And so, when you have like a father of a, a modality who continues to write about the, the soul and the spirit and the quantum nature of change and the kindness and the heart and the humanity and has a profound appreciation for metrics and measurement. I, I think that just to have that as the. The charge of, in the growth of motivational wing, because the growth of motivational interviewing, he has turned the reins over to all these amazing people that are just obsessed with, you know, all the aspects of motivational interviewing. So, you know, he still is the figurehead. But the there’s such a fascination when you said his name that I thought, you know, this is what’s incredible though. I remember having a conversation with him when they introduced the construct of compassion and I, as a social worker, I loved it. And as a trainer, I’m like, oh my gosh, we teach empathy. Why are we doing these little nuance things that don’t have an impact on outcome? Like from a measurability perspective, which is weird for me. Cause I like the spirit side of it. And the technique side is really critical as. But I remember him saying, you know, yeah. We spend years and years. I, I know that he and Dr. Moyers and Dr. Ernst, like there’s so many people that worked on, how do we measure empathy in language? Like how do we come up with a metrics to measure that? And that took a long time. Not only did it take a long time to measure empathy, but I remember in the first versions of the mighty the motivation treatment, integrity scale, it was to measure the spirit.

Casey: Of motivational interviewing. And so, to come up with components to measure the spirit of motivational interviewing, which we know we can’t measure the spirit of anything, but for them to come up with metrics of different components that we could measure. I was thinking about why are we adding compassion to the mix? And I kept looking through a measurable lens. And then when I had a chance to talk to, to, to bill about this, this is what I think I just had this deep appreciation I need to acknowledge it is that he said, you know, yeah, we spent years understanding empathy. He goes, I don’t know if we, I don’t care if we ever learn.

Casey: To measure compassion, but if it is not an, an aspect of compassion, it’s not motivational interviewing and he goes so, and , as long as I have a say in it, then that’s going to be, I’m going to write about it and say, we need to not lose compassion because I, he said, I don’t want the, the field to over correct. And make it all about technique and measurement, because then you are drifting away. Even if we can measure empathy, you are going to drift away from what is the purpose. And I think that’s, I think like the book that he referenced, John, that he wrote. It’s just about the love. It’s about the humanity. It’s about the kindness. It’s about how we interact in this human family is critical. And I think this is, I know this is my obsession. I don’t think it, I know this is my obsession is it’s the balance between that heart and soul of, of kind of the human family. and it’s measurable, reliable, and valid. Like that to me is just like the holy grail. Like what else could you want then to have something that’s measurable and reliable and valid.

Casey: And it comes from a heart of a pure desire to help. And I think what’s so fascinating to me is the understanding of the depth and breadth of that is not always, what’s translating into a lot of. It’s still, the translation ends up being into the or skills or these techniques. And so people will balance between teaching techniques and then talking about the spirit. So, I think this is why it’s for me, after you know, 20, more than 20 years, why I’m just. Continually daily obsessed with all the components of how language works and how our brain works and how change works and how stuckness works and how anger works and frustration and politics. And just like, oh my gosh. So, when we’re talking landscape, like there’s not a day, I think everybody, this podcast, like we all know there’s not a day that there’s not a construct for motivational that doesn’t, that couldn’t float through your. Like there’s, you know, whether it’s tension in a relationship or frustration as a parent or, you know, watching CNN or, you know, just anything that happens when you understand the constructs.

Casey:  It’s like, wow, this is, this is human beings in motion. And can I interface in a way that has some positive impact? And so, I think when you talk about how popular is it, what fields, what parts of the world, when you think about effective communication, it’s like, what corner of the world wouldn’t that touch? Exactly.

Tammy: I that’s just, what I was going to add in is it’s about communication. It’s not going back to the very beginning. Casey, you talked about counseling methods and all this type of stuff, and people lose fact or lose focus on the point that this is just a type of communication. This is how we communicate. And like you said, Watching CNN relationships, all these different things. You encounter tension, you encounter people struggling with change. You encounter people with ambivalence, which are all things that motivational interviewing can help

Casey: with. That’s exactly it.

John: Well, and we’re as we’re going with this with this overarching sense of MIS. reflecting on kind of what you were asking me, Casey, of learning over the years and, and mentorship by you and learning more and more. It’s recognizing this under these underlying intentions and what’s your intention with someone. And that’s why we talk about that with the motivational interviewing competency assessment the MICA, and really focusing on mindset. You could also say heart. And not just technique and technique people. And there seems to be this dilution of dispersion happening with motivational interviewing across the world from the original pro projectors of Dr. Miller and Dr. Steven Rollick because it’s getting so dispersed, it’s losing that original intent of the potency of that from this model and what seems to be playing out in research so far. There’s not one theory, that’s underlying AMI, but there seems to be these ways of treating people. That’s more helpful than not helpful for other things we know right now. For the vast majority of people, it doesn’t mean it works a hundred percent of the time, all the time. There are articles written on that. And if someone’s highly motivated, they might want to be challenged and confronted and all these things. And so the idea though, is for a lot of people, a lot of the time is what the research is pointing to. These ways of treating people that they have concessions to make in life. And that was something I was listening to on a other podcast recently that we always have by spending our time here.

John:  We’re not spending it here by focusing our thought process here. We’re not focusing it there. And so, we are always making concessions of here versus there of this versus that. And in, so doing. How much am I making an informed choice that this is really going to serve me in the best ways I want. And at a certain point through our culture, through the information that has been biased to us in our culture, we get exposed to certain things, thinking we’re making a certain kind of decision when we may or may not be with our time, our energy, our effort. Right? And so, at a certain point, so much of motivational interviewing seems to be. On this overarching view that I think transcends cultures is embracing someone else’s perspective beyond yours being curious about and not judgmental and getting clear of their motivations and priorities, and then helping them make an informed choice about who they want to be now and into the future, given certain amount of information and last but not least, I think the thing that gets lost in. Is there is a place for information and education and motivational interviewing. Yes. That isn’t necessarily advice, but it, there is something to be said about this cultural humility, but also that as best the helper can tell here is information that I’m going to throw in as neutrally as I can. That seems to help you get in the direction of what you want.

John:  And I think it’s. Way of being in the way of treating people that is so different than how motivational interviewing gets perceived of. Yes. Let me learn this thing. That’s been shown to be effective because my job is. Paid, or I hope to get you to do what I want you to do because I care. And you know that whole road to hell is paved with good intentions. That’s why we put down intentions and embodying them in a certain kind of a way with AMI, with the MICA, because so many people mean well with their compassion cases is what they should preface the whole thing with. Your compassion made me think of this, that so many people are trying to be compassionate and helpful, but they’re not treating people with this choice that they have concessions to make, and that radical responsibility that self-determination theory and other things would point to is that we have these decisions to make.

John:  It doesn’t mean that our support network doesn’t matter. It can make those decisions easier or less easier. The equal opportunity that we don’t have in our society also makes it easier or less. But we do have choices to make and treating people that they have concessions and choices to make. And being curious about that empathetic about that, that to me, is a style of compassion, Casey, a way of expressing the compassion that might be different than so many other professionals that think if I can just get them to do what I think is best, that’s compassionate. It’s like, whoa, that’s, that might be a version of your compassion, but that is not what Dr. Miller is. Meaning for compassion and motivational. I.

Casey: You know, and if you if you peel it back even, oh, go ahead, Tammy.

Tammy: Real quick. I just want to comment for people that are new or maybe new to this podcast. The MICA is the motivational interviewing competency assessment, and it’s one of the fidelity-based tools to help people measure whether they’re doing motivational interviewing to fidelity to actually receive the evidence-based practices.

Danielle: There we go.

John: Yeah.

Casey: Yeah. That’s it. And, and you know, and when you, as you were talking, John, I. What just struck me is that when you look through a Western medical perspective, which is, you know, we’re Western medical perspective because we’re Western and we’re in healthcare, behavioral health. I mean, that’s the perspective. It is so much transactional based fundamentally because when you think of Western medicine, you think if somebody breaks their arm, you know, you don’t need a lot of compassion. You just need to get their arm. You know if there’s, and we know that there needs to be bedside manner and partly because the research shows you’re going to have lower liability if you’re nicer to people and people tend not to Sue you as much. So that’s one reason that the medical field move towards more compassion is just to avoid litigation. And, but we’re so transactional based even with the attempt to transform. And I think that’s, what’s so fascinating about motivation is of methodology is because it is about the other person almost. And that is not normal in Western because we tend to be so self-centered even our, in our provision of service is what do I get out of it besides the, you know, either the paycheck or I feel good about my job or I feel, I feel, I, you know, we tend to just. Be a little bit more towards self-centered creatures and, and motivation is so profoundly other person centered when you’re doing it with the full intention of the full skillset.

Casey:  It is another person centered. And when you look at where the world is right now, there’s a. A glaring absence of that. And I think that’s why there’s this underlying gravitation towards a method of communication that people get to feel deeply heard and understood and help them work through. Do I like John, what you were saying, do I want to put my time here? Which means I’m not putting my time here. But to be able to work that in a way that align with your values and have somebody help you navigate that in a brief conversation is pretty profound actually, for some people its pretty life changing. To be able to get out of the chaos of the day to day, you know, race and to be able to just inhale, feel like you have a, a heart-based Chimney cricket inside of you, that’s helping you kind of navigate things in a way that you’re listening to even days that you don’t won’t listen to it. I mean, that, that to me is a pretty profound thing to be able to offer to another human. You know,

Danielle: it’s, it’s interesting listening to you guys talk about this. John, you brought up culture in the beginning and as I’m listening to the conversation, go back and forth and how you just brought it around to the beauty of how we don’t focus on like almost exclusively the other person to really lift them up and help them. And something I was aware of in the beginning is you were talking John about the culture piece and our biases. What I’ve fallen in love. With Me watching you train people. How much you do look inside and become aware of your own bias or things you weren’t thinking of, but it’s not, you don’t make it about you. It’s like this beautiful way to grow as a human. Yes. But not in that self-centered way. It’s just like, oh, note of that. Holy smokes. I didn’t realize I was doing that and, and it really kind of invites you to step in to being, being a better human, a more compassionate human for somebody.

Casey: You know, Danielle, when you say that what strikes me so much, like kind of what lights up in my brain is. It’s why I continue to be obsessed with motivational interviewing. I think one of the hardest things to do is surrender the expert role. Because I don’t consider myself an expert on motivational interviewing while other people do, because I just feel so naive to all the dimensions of it. I’ve been studying it for way more than 10,000 hours, but I still don’t feel like I’m an expert in it. And I think part of that is because what you just touched on my obsession every time, I do a training is. When you’re in high empathy, when you’re leaving your reality, when you’re staying in Equal poise, but entering somebody else’s worldview, I always talk about, it’s almost like these mini vacations. I get, I get to travel to other countries, other worlds, even in a training, which means I need to sit on my hands and keep my mouth shut and learn.

Casey:  How does this person see the world? Which is the way when I travel to foreign countries that I believe I should operate because I don’t want to be an ugly American. So, it’s just like, I’m going to sit on my hands and observe and observe and observe and keep my thoughts to myself until I understand how. Their reality works, how, what this culture functions as, and that is the antithesis of taking on the expert role of stomping in there and saying, Hey, that’s a problem. Look at your blood sugars. Look at your blood pressure. Look at this surgery. You need to change this. And if you don’t want to, okay, we’re going to mark you as non-compliant and maybe there’s some mental health issues going on. It’s just like, that’s kind of an ugly American approach. But it is the way that our kind of our services have evolved over the year from a Western medical perspective. It is fascinating. So, I this, this concept of landscape of motivational interviewing, I think that’s my obsession is that it’s forever changing. it is forever. Every time that new data comes out, that catches attention. When we learn how human beings operate, there’s things that we jettison and go, you know, that wasn’t like, I don’t train. Am I the way that I did 20 years? You know, there’s aspects of it that will always be the same and there’s aspects that are just like, you know, I don’t know if that’s the core of what makes

Casey:   behavior change when we look at this data it’s more about, this is what makes people change. This is where the brain starts to kick in differently. So, there’s some core constructs that will always be the foundation of motivational interviewing. But part of that evolution is as we learn more, it is a field that grows. And that that’s fascinating because not a lot of techniques or methods do. Mostly it’s, you know, you know, everything old is new again, but I think that’s when people who got trained in motivational interviewing, we, we hear this all the time as trainers, you know, oh, I got trained in motivational interviewing 10 years, so I just need a refresher. And then by the end of the train, they’re like, oh my God, this is not what I learned. this is, this is not what I learned 10 years ago. And I think this is, it helps people understand that this is the landscape is forever growing and changing and evolving. Well,

John: Also, in relation to this overarching sense too, as we’re coming to more of an end of, of our time today, what was going through my mind earlier, too, of like thinking about over the years, what I’m learning. And how it relates to motivational interviewing it’s it somewhat relates to what Dr. Theresa Moyers is putting in her new book. And her new book is called effective psychotherapy. Motivational interviewing is not a therapy. It is a method of communicating. It was developed as a pre-treatment to engage people in their own change process. The reason I’m saying all this with it being in the book, what I’m referring to is she’s. Really started to study and I’ve listened to her on webinars, and she’s gotten a lot of flak for it, but studying this sense of genuineness and authenticity and these things that are so intangible and so difficult to measure, but she really believes that her and even Dr. Miller and some of these other people. Are believing that there’s, that’s part of why it be cognitive behavioral therapy or other approaches, be it therapies or MI that there’s so much variation of outcome within. Even the same say clinic or set of clinicians, that there seems to be a, something about the human interaction there that goes beyond the language and beyond even just the method that there’s something else.

John: And the reason I want to give voice to that is I see that as the future of a landscape of motivational interviewing and really looking. This genuineness, this authenticity, this sense of resonance in that way, whatever that is. And it’s ironic, because it, you know, Casey, we know incorporate how there’s some robot or computer studies that show when people feel safe because they’re not speaking with a human it’s almost like they can open up more. But it seems to be that sense of psychological safety at the end of the day, that sense of, I feel safe and open to speak without judgment. And that if a human can do that, my hypothesis is that that’s going to be even more potent. Am I in the future than

John: the usual? Maybe am I, or the. Now using motivational interviewing with artificial intelligence motivational interviewing. And so, we’ll see how everything shapes up as I’m thinking about that. But I just wanted to highlight that because that seems to be such a critical point to the, you know, yes, 350 plus randomized clinical controlled trials showing that these sorts of things can be very helpful with motivational interviewing, but there seems to be more to tap into. And that’s what I’m really excited for. And. With that kind of future look, I also wanted to reference something that you referenced earlier. Casey, before we wrap up that if anyone’s interested in this overarching landscape of motivational interviewing, I’ll just say Dr. William Miller, getting to speak with him said that he is a very humbled and appreciative of motivational interviewing. And he thinks his, and it’s far beyond him. He thinks he’s a conduit and he’s very humble. But the work beyond motivational interviewing, he believes is in a book called quantum change. And that’s what you were kind of referencing earlier case. I just thought I would mention that as we’re kind of talking about this way of treating people motivational interviewing as an extension of that, and then William Miller, who’s done all this and been a part of catalyzing. All this still doesn’t see this as the bulk of it. He sees the future. As this book you wrote on quantum change. So, I think between the genuineness, the authenticity and the quantum change, that’s the future of motivational interviewing to potentially discover more. So that was my last little bit for the landscape of motivational interviewing, but I’ll wrap it up

Casey: there. You know, and I think this is why, you know, I have such a deep appreciation for all the people that interface with IFIOC is because our intention is to just continue to grow classes and fill in the gaps. And it’s not about classes and trainings. It really is about. When there’s a new angle, how do we share it with people? You know, there’s ways we share it through the MI plus and, and through the membership side of it, there’s ways we try to share it through for the self-study side. And then there’s through the trainings, how we keep evolving. And now there’s motivation and trauma informed that we do. And the, you know, everything from intro to advanced, to skill building and coaching, and that because of a training, I just did this week. I’m going to start working on a curriculum for motivation being in neuro divergence. And as we’re learning more about the brain and, and I, I just think this is why it’s never ending. And I think this is why, it just feels like, oh my gosh, this can go on forever and ever, and ever, and, and we’re going to keep trying to the best of our ability fill in, you know, as much of the pieces as we can for people that are interested in, in the things that we have to offer. Yeah. And

John: that it’s not a stigma thing too, because even we have a upcoming class for motivational interviewing with in nutrition and, and health coaches. And the reason I mention that is because with that coming up, it’s like, okay, yes, I’ve been through health coaching. Yes. I’ve been through motivational interviewing before, but. So much of that, I was trying to design around what you were just talking about, Casey, the fidelity of it, the sense of embodying it with those intentions. And I want to just point to that, that it’s easy to think we do something including for myself to think we do something. Versus really be it versus think it, and it’s that practice with feedback that I don’t care if it’s with us, but if you resonate with us great, we’re a resource for you to practice with feedback your motivational interviewing.

John: And that’s what I would invite you to do no matter what it is, whatever complex skill it is. But practice with feedback is really where it’s at to embody a lot of this stuff. And one way to do that is with the MICA tool that you were talking about earlier and, and had mentioned Tammy, and we really try to focus on that embodiment of intention. And I just wanted to highlight that Casey, for a lot of these classes, working in brain research, working in fidelity research, and really trying to make this more about embodiment rather than about ting people. And hopefully that resonates with a lot of people, but you can of course go to if I c.com, if you’re interested in our stuff, I know we had talked about mention. We also have other resources there’s you can of course go to the mint website, motivational interviewing network of trainers. That’s the international group and they have a lot of resources there. We’ve also posted our trainings on there. They have a lot of great resources, lot of great trainers and a lot of great things there.

John: We have our website if IFIOC.com and then on ours, we also have a free. Newsletter that you can sign up for and get free resources that way as well with membership that does a lot of various skill building. So hopefully that’s helpful just to know for your own options for where to go from here. And of course you can be involved with us here at the podcast or sending questions for us to resonate and riff off of what you want from us. Casey@IFIOC.com That’s casey@IFIOC.com and send in anything if you want to be on wonderful. We would love to have you, if you want us to answer questions, get deeper into certain subjects. Please let us know. But that’s all I have unless anyone else had anything else you wanted to add

Casey: there? Oh, this was a great, this was, this was my brain. Won’t stop working now. So I know it’s a good conversation. My brain’s just going a hundred different directions. So, I just appreciate everybody being on here today. Yes, Have a great day.