This is a 2 part podcast, if you have not experienced the 1st part, please do!
Wow this podcast is full of great insight and conversation as we have guest Jole Monroe on to discuss Juvenile systems and behavior change! You don’t want to miss this 2 part podcast!
We discuss so many great things including:
- Values and Behavior change
- Changing the Juvenile Systems industry approach to change
- Motivational Interviewing
- How Juvenile systems have changed over the years
Great that you mentioned that Casey about hitting them a harder doesn’t have as much of an impact. It’s not as effective. I was in a training a couple of weeks ago and what they were talking about was [00:01:00] how. There are better outcomes when you’re consistent. So the amount of 30 days versus a couple of days, or, you know, maybe our, our staff are creative.
They have them write papers. They have them watch videos. They have a. You know working on school projects as part of a sanction, instead of just locking kids up. If we have a consistent response to the behaviors that are negatively impacting the youth that has better outcomes than just throwing the hammer out of them every time.
And then it aligns with what the intention of, of. Juvenile rehabilitation. I mean, that’s, that’s what’s so I, I remember I talked about this before, when I was training doc. You know, I I’m literally out at one of the, one of the facilities. I remember making the comment, you all get to choose. Do you want to be department of corrections or do you want to be the department of punishment?[00:02:00]
If you want to be department of punishment, then change your. And it’s the same thing with juvenile real rehabilitation. I mean, it really is focused on rehabilitate. How do we really, the number we look at is reducing recidivism, but we looking at is, which is what these kids to just be go to school, being a normal family, you know, the goods and bads, you know, function, dysfunction and just don’t hurt other people or hurt yourself, you know?
And if we can help that happen a little bit more, I mean, that’s, that’s what rehabilitation should be is that they’re back on track. And, and not as many incidences of where they’re, you know, kind of crossing lines into interfering in other people’s lives in a negative way. So it just that, and now what you’re listening to with even the probation counselor perspective is that’s really what their focus is so much on when you’re hearing about the bus passes and school projects and different ways of looking at sanctions.
It’s just an integrative way of thinking. Yeah, Julie too, with the mention of consistency. It’s so interesting how transcendent that can be, but you’re talking to some degree, I’m [00:03:00] interpreting that you’re alluding to this change in culture that’s happening and being more consistent of the response to what happens.
And so that’s, it sounds like that’s a really, really important shift to the counselor. Like you were talking about Casey from the officer name and that that will create a different culture. And a different organizational system of, you know, who you hire, who you onboard, and then who’s being effective as well with their skillset.
And I really want to just highlight and affirm what you embodied earlier was such a wonderfully in my spirited approach of talking with the parent. And I’m curious to know we don’t have a lot more time, but how you. Also approach these conversations with the youth that might feel like they’re, they have to do things or they’re being forced to do certain things or that they don’t have choices.
And just how you navigate that because you, you obviously, with the parent really came at it from a, strength-based seeing the positive intent behind them, even calling and talking with you and [00:04:00] having empathy for even up to an hour, which is so hard for. Administrators to see the value in for a variety of reasons, but it was just such a wonderful depiction of being with someone in a different way that affects the long-term engagement that can affect the longterm change.
I’m wondering with the youth, then when you’re thinking about them in this place of they’re, they’ve, they’ve gotten, you know, caught there in this, maybe it’s sharing information like you did with the parent about how this is a destructive environment. You know, you get to decide how much your, your son or daughter or person wants to be here.
I don’t know. I’m just wondering for you, how do you go about navigating those in that same? In my spirited way, that tries to recognize there is a place of. Rules that were broken. And how do you go about that? So that’s a, that’s a couple of different things. Those are definitely a few different conversations that we have.
So when we’re working on behaviors now for, well, we’ll say compliance [00:05:00] the things we want you to be successful. So we talk about what their goals are. It really is focusing on their goals for longterm, what are they looking at for their future? How do they envision their future? And so trying to focus on that, how do we get there?
It’s, it’s breaking down those goals into small steps of what do we need to do now today, this week, this month to be successful at reaching those. As far as coming back and what confinement looks like we do talk about what they’re missing when they’re here in our building. They don’t have access to a refrigerator.
They don’t have access to a TV or a shower or their own clothing. And so it’s talking about trying to find out what’s important to them. Is there something that makes them say, oh yeah, I kind of really don’t like that part of it. And then explaining that they’re in charge of their choice. So when they talk about not wanting to come back well, what do you think that’s going to take?
What do you think that behavior would look like? Well, what do you think would bring you back here? So it [00:06:00] is, it’s asking the questions where they’re kind of processing through what the pros and cons are, but letting them know they really are in charge of their choices. And so what that future looks like, I want to weave this into.
Just knowing the amount of evidence-based practice that they’re there. Just the training that just in, in juvenile services period, just there’s so much, it’s at least in what I know around the country, but in Washington state, there’s just so much focus on evidence-based practice training. So, John, it kind of ties into what you were asking about with, how do you justify an hour conversation it now the PCs can lean into what we’re using evidence-based practices.
I, and when I look from a fidelity of my perspective, which is just one of the evidence-based practices that they have access to, I remember one of the first audios that I recorded for coding from a probably it still holds the record. This probation counselor was probation officer at the time [00:07:00] 57 closed questions in 10 minutes.
Like, that’s just the difference between that and the questions you were just listening to Jole. Like the quality of a walk of open-ended questions are different than well. Does your mom know? Did you go to school yesterday? Well, what time did you get up? Well, D would you tell your teacher well, you know, you have to get this done by Friday.
Did you get it done? Well, how often did it go? What time did you get there? Like, just instead of this. Rattling of questions. It’s more traditional from a probation officer. What you’re seeing is the quality of, of mindset is significantly different with probation, counselors, as they’re going in, they’re going, we have to navigate us differently.
And so we’re not using accountability at the forefront. It’s more the backdrop or the horizon of, do you want a life of accountability or do you want a life where you’re free from. The system and you get to choose. I mean, it’s the way that, that the Jolene teed it up and which is why you see, oh my gosh, this is motivational interviewing.
It’s it’s the core construct of Motivational Interviewing is engagement. First. We’re gonna not, we’re [00:08:00] not going to make this contentious and you shall do this, or you will do this, or you’re gonna get consequences. It’s avoiding that resistance out of the gate, avoiding the discord. And if they’re not really fighting with them and you can see the youth fighting with themselves, then you’ve got PCs.
Well, where do you want to go from here? Because this really is your choice. I’m not gonna make you do anything. Here’s the series of consequences and here’s a series of benefits and here’s how people can navigate you know, the court order really effectively, but ultimately you get to choose that.
We don’t get to choose that for you, that framing and that communication that’s, that is a hundred percentMotivational Interviewing based significantly changes the way that the, that the interactions unfold from that point before. Especially, it sounds like from totally what you’re sharing, be it with the parents or with the youth, when you’re looking at that long-term change.
And that there is some kind of therapeutic relationship, even though we may not be explicitly relating our lives to them. There is this therapeutic relationship over time that I know we’ve talked about in trainings [00:09:00] and things, how critical engagement is. We’ve talked about it with groups even just over time.
And so I think you’re giving and demonstrating the importance. Really deep, meaningful engagement, upfront Viet with the parent, be it with the youth and that creating a dynamic of acceptance and openness when you see them as whole and full and not lacking. And, and, and you’re just demonstrating that spirit of.
And then getting into more quality questions like you are getting that Casey versus information, seeking, or fact finding questions. And that’s a huge paradigm shift of the culture change that’s happening from an officer to a counselor is let me ask with these agenda and my intention to get you to change versus.
Me coming in there recognizing this is a long-term process. And I’m going to see it from your perspective. See that you’re even talking with me as an attempt to try and not see you as a line. But if there is a lie, it’s your discrepancy and not mine. All these ways of seeing them is [00:10:00] different even than all the skillset we just talked about.
And it just seems like such a paradigm shift, Jole. So I just really appreciate. Depicting it in the, in my spirited way you have. Cause I think it really gives a beautiful essence of what we’re talking about. So much of the time from so many angles, the way you demonstrated that, and that also speaks to a certain level of awareness and skillset you obviously have.
And it it’s something that I don’t know if we have the time to get into, but I know we had talked about to some degree. Internal feedback because some people might have an hour long conversation that’s more engaging than others. It sounds like yourself would be particularly effective with your empathy and your choice orientation and your affirmation, but not everyone has that awareness and skillset.
So I know before we came on, you had talked about. Motivational Interviewing Competency Assessmenttraining and getting that incorporated. So I don’t know if we want to go there, but I just wanted to bring that in just as see, like, how do you see the people that you’re working with and helping them get to that [00:11:00] level of awareness, at least that you’re at to embody this in, in those ways?
Well, I am super lucky that as Tory and Scott are very supportive of, Motivational Interviewing training? Cause we’re all on the same page with that. We really do want to have that level of. Mastery understanding ability to implement with our staff. And so it is I think am I, if you get away from the training for too long, it’s easy to.
Not have that, the skills. And so that’s we are trying to do it yearly as Casey mentioned the last few years. Because I, I recognize how important it is to engage youth that way, that we really want to keep it a focus for our staff and with the new staff we have coming on. Now, it just seems like it’s a perfect time to get everybody Understanding where we’re working with clients at what’s optimal for our interactions with families, what’s going to be successful and helpful.
You know, I, I, as we’re [00:12:00] wrapping up, I just it’s, it struck me for like the last five minutes. And I, I have to comment on it now. What we’re talking about right here, I, I, and I think this deserves time because we are most at a separate epidemic with the. I mean, when you look at schools, when you look at everything going on and there’s something profound to me about when you listen to what Julie’s talking about and everybody that’s listening, because we’re all we have the capacity to be change agents.
If you like Motivational Interviewing, and you’re listening to this and there’s party, that wants to be a change agent when you’re listening to Jole, talk about is not what is happening in schools. What we’re talking, this one is talking to somebody that’s a supervisor in juvenile probation. And the juvenile rehabilitation system and everything we’ve talked about for the last 30 minutes has been truly on focusing on rehabilitation and schools are still relying more and more on compliance.
So it just shows you culturally in systemically, if juvenile rehabilitation is truly working towards rehabilitation, [00:13:00] how do we support school systems with the same youth to start to make that shift? Because they’re feeling so desperate and what do they want? They want more and more compliance tools. They want more officers.
They want teachers with guns. They want all these other things. And it’s just like, oh my gosh, can we learn and look at if we’re trying to do rehabilitation, if we’re trying to support our youth and family supporting these youth compliance, hasn’t worked just look at the juvenile system and look at the years of compliance, that those outcomes were not good outcomes and they don’t get the, they don’t deliver what we hoping to deliver.
And I just keep thinking if we’re with where youth are out right now. In the world of COVID in the world of compliance in the world of guns and school shootings and teachers being exhausted and quitting and in, you know, just waves and waves as suicides. It’s like, oh my gosh, I just I’m. I wish that I could see the education field moving more and more towards this.
And I think there about where juvenile was about 10 years ago. They’re talking about they’re pushing the trainings, but they won’t give the teachers enough time to get actually [00:14:00] fidelity based training. They get an hour of in-service. Which is the same thing I used to do with juvenile, you know, 15 or 20 years ago, they’d get a three-hour training and that was it.
And wouldn’t use it, think, oh my gosh, this is amazing, but they didn’t know how to use it and didn’t know how to apply it. And I think that’s basically what I see in the school systems now is that they want the change so bad, but there have a stronger eye on compliance than they do on, on true rehabilitation or behavior change.
And I just, I had to float that out there because I think it’s so critical. I don’t want to be so focused on the juvenile rehabilitation side of things that it’s like, we’re looking at youth in general. We have data that shows which way to go. And I hope that the school systems and all the change agents that are listening to the podcast, think about this from, you know, what are evidence-based practices and how do we affect behavior change for the good of our communities and for our society.
Well, I’m wondering Jole for you. Just what you’ve kind of taken away so far with your Motivational Interviewing journey. As we’re I think coming to a close [00:15:00] Tami, you can correct me if I’m wrong for timing, but just with your journey. And where you see it going as we kind of come to a close in your particular a role like yours or the culture you’re in just as we’re kind of bringing this to a close for a sense of where you’ve been and where you might be going with it.
Great. Thank you. So I was promoted from detention as Casey kinda mentioned, that was a pretty regular route was people would be hired in detention and then promote a probation. And so I started probation in 2007. I think within a year or so, I had my first three hours training and then it might’ve been a couple of more years before I had another one.
And I think that timeline of the last five, six years, we really have focused more on it. So personally I was very intimidated, but you know, jumping in and doing a three-day training of Motivational Interviewing, I was just so worried my skills. Weren’t going to be ready for that. And so. I [00:16:00] may have done the intro to Motivational Interviewing twice, I think maybe three times.
And then I went on to the advanced and the advanced to me felt like it broke it down so much more than the intro that I, I felt so good taking that training. I felt like it really did dial in. The skills a lot more. I’ve done the trauma and I training as well. And I’m sure there were many more three-hour trainings in there too in the hour trainings, just as the refreshers, as we call them.
So being able to have this upcoming training in January, we’re, we’re, we’re doing the three-day training for our staff. I’m very excited that they’ll, some of them have only done the half hour training. Our newer staff we’ve had. Been able to send them over when we were in person, a few of them online.
I just, I can’t speak highly enough of about how motivational interviewing has impacted my work. And I think helped me be a better support for [00:17:00] parents support for staff and communicator with. And so when I meet with a youth, now, there are times I still get to, and the conversation, you know, the first thing we’re talking about you know, what, what could you have done differently, you know, to end up what different choices could you make?
Tell me about what your future looks like. What do you want to have? And that’s where we have the conversation about them being in control of if they come back. So helping them understand that they have choices is really important. I know that my skills would not be my communication skills would not be as developed if I did not have motivational interviewing training.
I love that. And I specifically really find what’s really resonating with me is empowerment over choices. Reminding people that they have the choice, because so often in our world, whether it’s in the school district and you’re a teacher trying to help your student to get where they need to go, or your parent trying to be [00:18:00] a parent, it’s so easy to slip into a compliance-based model, but you’re right.
At the end of the day, everyone has choice. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And it sounds like the overarching theme of this really is a culture change from compliance to what you might term compassion or something. You even use the words I get to speak with youth versus I have to speak with youth. And even just that shift of mind is what we’re talking about.
That I know a case that you’ve. Talked about and other podcasts deeply, as well as this compassionate place that then fuels a place for empathy for an hour, without any need for a ton of direction, you know? And that there’s a fuel of, of not just functionality, but purpose and compassion behind it, that will ultimately shape likely in a more pro-social society that we’re all working towards rather than making it about these rules.
There are healthy boundaries to have pro-social things going on. That we could get into when it comes to certain types of [00:19:00] offenses. But that being said, it’s not about that. It’s about the compassionate side of it. And recognizing that seems to be a huge, huge piece that you are clearly doing Jolie and really appreciate the work like echoing.
I think all of us of what you’re doing in the culture, you’re changing for this to really. Have changed where it’s needed most with people that really have been likely coming from a background that is not that could be disenfranchised and all sorts of things that is could be seen as unfair.
And, and it really is giving them a better way or a more empowered way to go about their life that is probably going to serve them. So thank you for the work you’re doing Jolie. But before we wrap up anything else, Casey, Tammy, that you wanted to add to. No, I just, I just want to echo off that to John and just say, you just appreciate the work that Jole does and, and the team that she has as important, you know, that she has to do what she does.
I know she, she, and I’ve talked about it, just that, that the culture there has shifted so much and that the leadership there really, really does get it and supports it. And I just to see that. Transform [00:20:00] lives to me is amazing to me there’s that transformation of lives is it’s what we’d hope for, from, from anything, with working with any, any person at all, but especially with youth.
So. I just appreciate that as well, too. I actually do have to recognize my staff recognize them how much I appreciate them, because their willingness also to implement this in their interactions with youth is more important than, you know Than anything here because they they’re the ones that are willing to do it, willing to learn and willing to have that daily in and out of the youth and the parents and trying to always come from this place of Motivational Interviewing.
So I want to thank them for their work and everything. So, if you want to, you know, get ahold of Jolie you can either get old, you know, reach out to email@example.com. Jole a Spokane juvenile court services. And so just make sure [00:21:00] that if there’s any of these topics that you find interesting.
Just email us. These are the kind of conversations we’d love to have other topics that you’re fascinated with. Ultimately, what we’re trying to do is provide a communication solution. That’s going to change your world. That that’s what we’re at at IFIOC and, and hope this was worth your time. Thanks everyone.
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