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About this Episode

Welcome to today’s episode of The Communication Solution podcast with Casey Jackson, John Gilbert and Danielle Cantin. We love talking about Motivational Interviewing, and about improving outcomes for individuals, organizations, and the communities that they serve. In this episode, we discuss the critical role of communication in handling traumatic situations, especially in the school system amidst threats and violence. The episode delves into how motivational interviewing can offer guidance and support during crises, focusing on Casey’s personal experience with his children in a school lockdown. It emphasizes the importance of managing reactions, choosing between fear and rational thinking, and the impact of these choices on others, particularly children.

In this podcast, we discuss:

• Casey’s Personal Experience: A recounting of a school lockdown involving Casey’s children, offering a real-world context for the discussion.
• Managing Parental Fear: Insights into how parents can handle their trauma responses while supporting their children during crises.
• The Duality of Reaction: Exploring the struggle between emotional reactions and the need for rational action in emergencies.
• Applying MI in Trauma: Discussing how motivational interviewing principles can be adapted in traumatic situations, particularly in school environments.
• Advocacy vs. Change: Balancing the desire to advocate for change with the need to create constructive outcomes.
• Empathy and Understanding: The importance of entering others’ worlds empathetically, even in traumatic contexts.
• Consequences and Compliance: How motivational interviewing can help in framing consequences and compliance in a more constructive manner.
• Feeding Fear or Faith: The concept of choosing which emotions to feed during a crisis – fear or faith.
• Role of Educators and Staff: Guidance for teachers and school staff in stabilizing situations and providing support to students.
• Empowering Through Communication: Strategies for empowering individuals and communities to deal effectively with trauma through effective communication.

You don’t want to miss this one! Make sure to rate us or share this podcast. It would mean so much to us!

Thank you for listening to the communication solution. This podcast is all about you. If you have questions, thoughts, topic suggestions, or ideas, please send them our way at casey@ifioc.com. For more resources, feel free to check out ifioc.com. 

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Transcribe

 Hello and welcome to the communication solution podcast with Casey Jackson and John Gilbert. I’m your host, Danielle Cantin. Here at the Institute for Individual and Organizational Change, otherwise known as IFIOC, we love to talk about communication, we love to talk about solutions, and we love to talk about providing measurable results for individuals, organizations, and the communities they serve.

Welcome. To the communication solution that will change your world. Hi everyone. I’m Danielle Cantin. I’m here on the Communication Solution podcast, and I am joined by Casey Jackson, your host and expert in motivational interviewing. How are you, Casey? I’m doing pretty well. Awesome. Well, I’m excited about this episode.

We’re looking at,  Basically, what’s happening in school systems. I had a question for you around motivational interviewing and the communication solution when, you know, in the news, you hear about all of the challenges in school systems,  and how they’re trying to keep kids safe and how they’re exposed to obviously guns and violence and threats.

And what I really enjoy,  about the way that you train and the way your brain works is that, you know, how to take an idea from kind of the ivory tower discussions and make it very tangible and real. And I don’t know if that’s the visual part of myself that you just tell stories in a way that I get.

And then I also. Retain and it helps me relate to things. So I was hoping we could dive into an experience that I know you just went through recently with your kids in the school system as it relates to how motivational interviewing might be able to help be a guide in situations where. Kids are,  in school systems and parents, everybody’s affected by the potential threat and the actual threats that are happening in the school system.

Yeah, it’s, I mean, at least I’ve had a day to process it now.  Yeah. So, so what had happened was yesterday morning, you know, I get,  first I get the texts from my daughters that they’re, they’re in lockdown and freaking out.  They were separated, they’re twins and they were separated.  So one is with her boyfriend and they’re in one room.

And then my, the other daughter is with two of her friends and they’re both texting me scared because they’re in lockdown and they know that there’s a potential,  threat. Either in the building or outside of the building, you know, and then, then I get the emergency alert on my phone,  from the school district saying that they’re in lockdown, you know, and then about, I’m just so blessed that I have friends that work in that school.

So I immediately text them,  and. Hoping that they’ll respond in the middle of the crisis. And they did. I mean, immediately, which is amazing that, you know, and gave me kind of the scenario. And then some other teachers had texted separately and let us know what was going on that we knew. And, and

it’s hard because when the. The girls are freaking out as would make sense.  And trying to stay calm and, you know, I’m just so in dad brain in that moment,  it is hard to, to, you know, what’s the right thing to do? You know, how can I be supportive? And, you know, they, they say, you know, parents don’t come to the school.

You know, law enforcement’s involved, stay, please stay away from the area. And, and then it’s just the, as I get more information from people who know what’s going on,  there was,   a man with a rifle outside of their school,  and it just caused all sorts of reactions in me and. You know, just anger and frustration and, you know, that gets into politics and all these other things that, that,  that my brain just wants to go to just, you know, angry and emotional.

And, and then I think about some of the things that I literally, I mean, because I, I talk about this stuff every single day, I get to train every day and then my brain goes through kind of the, the practical side of how I look at motivational interviewing, which is, you know, there’s nothing wrong with being angry and advocating.

Doesn’t necessarily change behavior, not that advocacy doesn’t change behavior, but in most situations we look at when we go into a hard advocacy position, you tend to generate hard opposition pretty quickly. And that’s where my brain just continues to go through, you know, where’s the source of discord?

Where’s the source of writing reflex? Then there’s the dad part of me. It’s like, I don’t care. I don’t give a f k. I don’t care.  You know, these are my babies and, and this is insanity. And when is the insanity going to stop? Like, I can’t handle this anymore. Like this is just, you know, and, and knowing just kind of where people’s brains are at in the communities that I live in, that it just triggered a whole lot of things for me.

 And I remember, you know, when I was kind of driving towards the school and, and kind of in that hovering moment of, you know, staying back. But if I need to go there and pick up a girl, so I’m going to be right there to get them, the thing that went through my brain is, do you want to be right? Or do you want to be happy?

 And, and if I want to be happy, that means I need to create change in a way that’s productive and not react from my emotions, which is really hard not to do when you’re, you know, every parenting instinct gets triggered and, you know, you’re ready to fly over there and, and. Take that gunman out yourself.

Like, it’s just like, I can’t, you know, you’re not going to hurt my kids. You’re not going to hurt these kids. So it’s just fascinating that my brain that’s in this reactive mode and emotional mode and, and its own trauma response in the moment has this whole other lecturer part in my brain just going, okay, now let’s deconstruct this as I’m sitting in the car next to the sidewalk, just going, okay, you know, it’s wild.

So that was, that was, you know, part of the experience from yesterday. That’s a really good point.  That you mentioned about advocacy. Casey is,  advocacy is great. And the truth of it is, is that it can create opposition. And so you went directly to,  what is that behavior? What, what is, what’s the end result you want to achieve?

Is it be happy or be right? And you had to make a decision. And then from there, you could align your behavior. To, okay, what can I do to achieve that end? Is that an accurate,  assessment? Yeah, and it’s the things that I think of where I want to react or, you know, maybe from an outside perspective, overreact.

And even when I was thinking about just. How angry I was and how emotional I was, I know what happens when you take that to a school board meeting or, you know, you get people whipped up in a frenzy and there’ll be on your side and just, and then you see the counterbalance to the opposite side of that, that whips up in a frenzy.

And it just, it comes again, you know, I love what Miller talks about with the writing reflex. It comes from a heart of wanting to help, but when you have those writing reflexes. It’s nearly mathematic that you’re going to get an equal and opposite energy generated. So how do we navigate that in a way that perpetuates ambivalence versus perpetuates resistance?

And so this, I think there’s, you know, always get questions. People ask me questions all the time about, can you use it in a family setting? Can you use motivation with a group? Can you use it in large groups, you know, and. What I always tell people at any time I get those kind of questions is so much of it comes down to the complexity,  of your skillset, how advanced your skills are in motivational interviewing.

And are you trying to create change or again, are you trying to advocate or teach or, you know, there’s just, I’m just such a fanatic of trying to keep, am I, what am I is and not make it all sorts of things that it’s not, but there are so many great constructs in it. So for me, what I think of in those situations is, If I’m trying to affect change, and I am a huge proponent of advocates, I think it’s a, it’s.

You know, phenomenal. When people take up a torch and do what they do. But then I look at so much of the byproduct, I’m always thinking, is there a more efficient or a more effective way to go about it as well, too?  And all advocacy doesn’t mean that you’re picking up the torch and marching.  You know, which again, I’m a huge supporter of, um.

Just all of those rights that we do have. So just, I think that all these thoughts that are going through my brain as I’m sitting there staring at the chain link fence, you know,  and starting at the school just going, God, how, how do we do this in this day and age? How do we make change when it feels like nothing is going to change?

 You know,  you know, and I, and then I get angry about the, you know, sending thoughts and prayers and it’s like, gosh, can we just change something, you know?  Instead of perpetuating this in communities and neighborhoods and families and individuals that trauma, where’s the impetus to, for change?  So lots of things that go on through my brain through all that.

So you’re always looking at that for change. And what I hear you saying is you started with yourself.  And I can imagine there are many parents out there that can really relate to,  okay, here’s the news. And your first reaction is like, I would find it hard to believe if it wasn’t, I’m going to go and take this guy out myself.

It’s all about, it’s my job. I will keep you safe. I will, you know, and you’re thrown into trauma, your trauma brain. And it’s like fight or flight. Yeah. So what you were able to do was say, okay, that’s happening. Like hard to say you’re not going to have that trigger, but luckily you had this other part of yourself.

I don’t know where to point at my head for that, but I know, cause you talk about trauma and then executive functioning. So it’s like you had that executive functioning piece kind of being the trainer, you training yourself going, okay. What do you want to achieve this or this and kind of breathing and getting yourself through that to say, okay, yes, I can keep them safe and we can do it in this way.

Yeah, and I think the thing that’s striking to me in so many ways is that I was just raised in an incredibly competitive family. And so the first thing I want to do is I will take you out. I will not lose. And like, and I just, that’s the way I was raised. And so to think of how much some of those tapes, which I think that there’s, I think there’s good things that came from that,  you know, that I will win at all costs.

I will take them out at all costs. And I think, I think the mindset in. In mainstream America, there’s so much of that mindset. I will take you out at all costs. It’s part of the problem. It’s not part of the solution. And those are the things that, you know, it’s just this internal. Well, it is the, I mean, it’s definition of ambivalence.

Like, it really is the devil and the angel on my shoulder of just going yes, yes, yes. And then no, no, no, yes, yes, yes, no, no, no.  Especially when you’re in your own trauma response and, you know, you have people you love are involved. The thing I want to tease out about this too is that may or may not be an MI moment as far as changing behavior because it’s a health and safety or a risk issue.

So I don’t want to. Conflate some of these concepts as well, too. But what I think of in those situations is really the only thing I have control over because I couldn’t control anything in that situation. The only thing I can control is how I react to it or how I’m processing it. And that’s just really hard to do when our brains are in that reactive zone.

 To, to try to think logically and, and because part of where our inertia comes from is that energy that’s perpetuated in fight, flight, freeze. You know, you don’t want to anesthetize that too, because that was a survival skill for, you know, it’s how we survive. Is that fight flight race? It’s not like we’re trying to anesthetize it, but I think for me, it’s being able to process it and deconstruct it in a way that leads to the best possible outcome,  for all people concerned.

Because then what I think of too, is then I think of individual I worked with in state prison or federal prison or people I’ve worked with, with, you know, that struggle with mental health issues or,  you know, substance use issues. And I know there’s, I know there’s a thing about. You know, they’ve got their rifle in their hand and they’re in front of a school, all bets are off.

And there’s part of me that genuinely believes that until I’ve been inside the head of the person that’s actually in front of the school,  with a gun in their hand. And since I’ve been in people’s heads like that, it’s hard because it, it, it brings you to a whole person perspective and it, and. And again, health and safety is always primary, so I’m going to keep saying that, but the more information you have, I think sometimes the more difficult the decisions of what is the right thing to do.

I think there’s a difference between the right thing to do and the righteous thing to do.  What’s the, the righteous thing to do is not always the healthiest for everyone.  But we can justify and defend ourselves for why we make those decisions. So, wow. Um. Wow. That’s profound to think of it that way of when you, at the essence of motivational interviewing is really the ability to, to enter somebody else’s world to have accurate empathy.

And so you’re really skilled at that. So even, even in the aftermath that is this quick, you’re able to go, yep, this was my trauma. You know,  reaction, and then I was able to move more to executive functioning to help, you know, react in a way that would get me the, the behavior that, or the experience that I want, you know, was aiming for,  and then at the same time, say, be aware that there was another party involved.

That you would and could potentially get into their world and, you know, have an experience with a person. That’s, that’s it. And it, it’s the, the, you know, there’s some things that I just, I really do have an appreciation that I have this mindset or this structure in my brain because it did give me things to focus on while I’m sitting next to the school.

 And part of that is as well too, is that I, it’s almost like, you know, from the. The writing reflex video or the teeter totter seesaw one, then when you can see both sides of the ambivalence, my brain is just, you know, sprinting to both sides of the teeter totter, like, you know, just anger and fear and emotion and, and, and panic.

And, and, and then, you know, like, you can’t do anything right now. So what do you know in those situations? I mean, you teach this, you train this, you know, what the brain is doing right now, you know, and then I get more text messages from my daughters, which creates a reaction. And then how do I help their brains function more effectively when my brain’s starting to freak out?

You know, when they’re, they’re emotional and stressed and, and then doing what I know is the most effective thing, even through text to help them kind of center and be calm and help their brains not going to full trauma response, you know, and not knowing what’s going on. And then having these panics about.

What if they are one of the by products of, you know, somebody who loses their mind and, and, you know, and it shoots up a school like, and then it’s like, but you’re talking to your daughters right now and you have to help their brains function more effectively. Like that’s a, what if that you have no control over what you have control over is what you text.

Into your phone right now,  you have control over how you’re framing this to help their brains function more effectively as I’m just, then all of a sudden you have the panic of, you know, and what if he comes around this side and just start shooting at the cars that, you know, if the parents that are kind of out of the zone, but in the zone,  at the same time, it’s, you know, and then it’s like, but then you’re texting and, and trying to think that way.

I just, again, I feel so the level of gratitude I have that my brain can process this in the moment. And I think it’s because it literally is chronic exposure. Every single day I talk about the constructs and people tell me about the traumas and their, and the populations they serve. And then I walk through it with them because I believe in the model and it helps me also understand that it doesn’t make, am I, or this method, right in every single situation.

I just know what it looks like if you were going to apply it. It doesn’t mean it’s the right thing to apply in that situation. And I think those are the things that my brain was just rapidly. Processing through,  you know, with every time I got a new text from somebody within the school or, you know, or the girls or any of those things that were going on.

I have a couple of questions for you. One is on the track of what it’s like to be a parent.  Any, any suggestions or,  constructs you can share here for, for those listening that. Are in that parent role in terms of what you do have control over is what you say to your, your kids, any suggestions or frameworks around a good approach for that.

If a parent is in a situation where they’re being triggered and, and have fear for themselves for the safety of their kids, how do they step into helping their kids?  Any examples or anything you can share there? Yeah, you know, I’m always going to lead these kind of conversations off with there’s, there’s lots of right ways, and there’s probably not one perfect way.

But when I look through a motivation lens, and when I think about, you know, as a parent, what I try to do with my own children is I just want to strengthen their problem solving skills. And, and everything is everything in your body is apparent is you want to tell them what to do and why they need to do it and you want to share your wisdom and explain your wisdom to them.

And, you know, if you would just listen to me and, and, and with the, my daughter’s being, you know, 14, almost 15. Now I, I have an,  an amazing ability. I really appreciate that. I can go back to vivid memories of my own parent. I, you know, my parents raising me and, and knowing when they’d say things like that, like, I know how my brain processed it as an adolescent.

 Is the, yeah, you can say that, but you don’t know me.  You know, like, you know, and you’re just saying that because you think you’re right then and you know, you don’t, and I’m sure you didn’t do it when you were a kid, like all the things that I know the way my brain worked back then, I can vividly remember my brain worked back then in conversations with both my parents and.

So to fight all of those parental, you know, instincts, that’s just, I think, imprinted in my DNA,  in a parenting DNA, it’s just like, you know, no, you’re not going to do that. Are you crazy? You’re not leaving the house wearing that. And, you know, everybody’s going to think this about you or, you know, don’t you understand?

Like, if you don’t get your homework done or you don’t talk to the teachers, then how is this going to happen? Like all those narratives in our brains that we want to, you know, explain to and,   shape our children with. Okay. It just doesn’t work that well that way. What it is is when they know and get clear what core values are within them, when you help them uncover their core values, it, for me, it’s that chronic exposure is your behavior really getting you what you want.

I think where parents struggle is and where I have struggled,  in parenting challenges is when their brain thinks Like, Oh, if I continue to do this and it’s okay, if I date this person, you don’t understand.  You know, just having one drink or just vaping, it’s not that big of a deal. And that wasn’t my children thing, thankfully.

 But when I see those kinds of things that come up in the brain with you, their behavior really believes like it’s in line with our values. And the adult looks at them and thinks. I’ve had this conversation. They think it’s okay. They genuinely think that, you know, having sex at 14 is okay. They think that, you know, vaping is not that big of a deal.

 Like they, they believe that their behaviors line with our values because partly their behavior is in line with. With some of their values at the top of the mountain, when the brain hasn’t fully developed, that’s the hardest part for parents is being able to go, okay, then how do we navigate this effectively?

And that’s also where it, it, to me, it’s without it being repercussion personal, it’s how do we create natural consequences in a way? That they would experience that, whether they were in the family or my family system or not within my family system, there’s just natural consequences that happen. And so how do I try to replicate real world consequences without me wagging my finger at them and saying, well, I told you so, or I told you this was going to happen because that comes from a righteous place again.

Versus when it’s this way, Equipoise and writing reflex is so important versus when it’s like,  let’s talk about what the ground rule rules are ahead of time. And this, I learned with my adult son, when I started to just talk about the kind of the expectation, the rules ahead of time and negotiate those together in a very, very, you know, egalitarian way to the best of my ability, like what feels fair, what feels fair for this.

Okay. What consequences feel fair? And they usually come up with better consequences before the fact than they do when the consequences come down, because their belief is, I will follow through. I will do exactly what I need to do, so we don’t have to worry about this. So basically punish me however you want to.

And it’s like, what do you think the consequences are? And then from that point forward, what was helpful for me is to be not emotional about it then to actually almost be compassionate of going, this is, I just don’t want to be in your shoes to know that you’re not going to be able to have the money to go to prom now.

 You know, if all these things you talked about at a time, it’s, it’s, it’s got, it’s gut wrenching for me and I don’t even want to, you know, and they get angry and defensive and start screaming and, and do the things that a normal person would do, but the reality is, is they’re stuck with the fact that their behavior got them to where they are, but I’m not in a place of, I told you so, or a finger wagging righteous place because then they miss the whole point of the lesson.

I literally allow them generate resistance instead of having them at some point when they’re laying in their bed, staring at the ceiling saying, God, I screwed up.  That’s, that’s the things that I want to be able to create from what I understand about ambivalence and how do we help people work through ambivalence based on their own values.

So it doesn’t mean there’s an absence of consequences. This comes up all the time when I train with people that work within compliance based systems, like, well, we have consequences. We have to do compliance. And it’s like, there’s consequences that happen, but you don’t have to be the compliance officer per se.

You can use those opportunities for the person’s behavior is the thing that’s going to get them in a good place or not good place. It’s not how you handle them. They’re either going to make the good choices or they’re not going to make the good choices. We can perpetuate and facilitate people making choices.

They’re going to align with where they want their outcomes to be.  And it’s not, it’s not perfect because the brains are still going to do what the brain wants to do, but. You’re giving them you’re increasing and strengthening executive functioning and all that function in the prefrontal cortex. The more we do that.

Gosh, it’s so awesome for parents. What valuable information just just to work with any young adult, any anyone to help them problem solve, not. It’s almost like the instinct is to get, I’m going to get you to trust me. See, I told you so. See, like now, will you believe me next time when you’re in this situation?

And it’s like, no, I’ll believe me next time. You know, the child or the youth. So really valuable.  Thank you, Casey. I have one last question for you and it’s like. As we shift around perspectives of this particular situation, you just explained how, how your child might feel in a situation, what they’re experiencing,  how the parent is, can you touch on some advice or some guidance for,  many of the people you train in school systems,  welfare, you know, all of these different organizations that are out there, how Helping families, helping youth navigate these situations.

And I can’t help, but think of the school system in your case and the teachers and staff and the administrative folks who were dealing with this crisis yesterday. Any, any tips and guidance or insight to share with them? The thing I would say about in the middle of trauma or experiencing trauma, and I’m not a, an expert in trauma.

I just study it a lot and I know what’s worked for me.  And what I. You know, at this point in time, know what we know about trauma is just allowing yourself whatever response and honoring whatever your response you’re having what has been so profoundly helpful for me and in some, some trauma situations that I’ve been in,  studying this is that pathway of going, do I want to go into my fear based brain or do I want to go into my.

You know, more of a higher awareness brain and when you’re like, what am I going to do? What am I going to do? Like, I can’t deal with this. Even in those moments for me, it’s almost like being able to kind of dig that ice pick into the ice as you’re sliding down the, the mountain.  It’s just like, I have a choice to have fear in this situation, or I have.

A choice to gather myself and, and I, I don’t want to overuse the word choice because I know people are going to say, but when we’re in that fight flight freeze, we don’t have choice. We’re just in survival mode. But if you have the cognition to be able to just go, I’m freaking out, what can I do here?

There’s part of your brain that is scrambling to get up into your logical brain. And it, I don’t want to oversimplify it, but the way that it works in my brain really is that I think it’s the Cherokee story about the two wolves fighting inside you. You know, the one that has fear and the one that has faith and, you know, and the, the wisdom keeper says, you know, the one that’s going to win inside of you is the one you’re going to feed.

So if you’re going to feed the fear, it’s going to win. If you feed the faith based one, it’s going to win. So what do you want to feed? And I think that is that resonated with me just deeply to the core of who I am. And so in those trauma response situations, I think, which, what do I want to feed right here?

Because what you feed is going to perpetuate the fear and anxiety is going to grow. And this is why. And helping the girls yesterday, I didn’t want to feed the fear, but I wanted to also honor that. They also have the responses that they have every human right to have as well, too. It’s it’s that’s why there’s no perfect answer, but at least there’s a structure in my brain that I get to work from just go.

Okay. How do we navigate this where we can honor? Our human reaction that is overwhelming and emotional and, you know, and, and getting triggered on all these survival levels and then being able to use parts of our brain that we know if we access them and, and just like to almost, almost like kind of pushing a door open or, you know, prying a window open that, you know, we, if we fight that hard to get into that part of our brain,  we have the capacity to do that as well too.

The thing I need to add to it for everybody that knows trauma informed approaches is, and it is easier if you have protective factors, it’s easier for me because I had, you know, I had stability and I had, even though I came from, you know, a lower income family, I had two parents that stayed together who loved us and provided stability.

And so I have so many protective factors where my brain wasn’t chronically in trauma response. And there’s individuals in, you know, in families or in communities or in countries where it’s chronic trauma. And so their brains are just going to, they’re just. More readily going to go into that. So it’s easier said than done is all I can keep saying.

It doesn’t negate that that structure isn’t effective to think about that. Which one are you going to feed? Just then every individual is going to have their own experience with their capacity or their own trauma about how readily they can access that part,  and try to get on top of it. And then obviously go through whatever healing process they need to after as well, to whatever that takes, however they define that.

I like that you just highlighted that piece because again, your visuals, you paint if I can replay back to what I see right now is this is this mountain and it’s your school system. You’re you’re the school yesterday and I see all of the teachers and administrative staff sliding down. Like, the initial reaction is Oh my God, this is happening.

And they all just go like sliding down the ice mountain and they all whip out their picks, ice picks. And it’s like, that’s the vision I have is like, that’s what happens in a, in a situation like that. And, or,  a system like that is like, boom, boom, boom. Everybody’s. They locked in. Yes. So I hear you saying is, yes, do that and make sure you honor the fact that you did slide or whatever that was for you, each individual or, or staff member.

 Well, and when you say it, when you’re. That’s it, Daniel. And I think that’s the thing. If that could happen, and that is a monumental ask or monumental, you know, task for for anyone in trauma situations to be able to dig that ice pick in. But when you think that we’re taking care of children in an ideal world, if we’re the ones who are the caretakers and the caregivers, just think about if, you know, all these teachers are digging their ice pick and getting and all the kids are sliding and all of a sudden they see teachers just kind of digging in.

How much Stability that provides for children around that, or for families in a family system, when things are chaotic, that the parent can dig an ice pick into their values and, and, and feel stable and then are able to grab their child’s hand. Like, that’s, that’s for me is partially what the role of adults are is, you know, hopefully we’ve learned and hopefully we, we try to grow and get stronger.

And if we understand this, then we provide that stability when, when it feels like, you know, there’s no solid ground beneath us. Which is hard to do, it’s just easier said than done and this is why it’s so complex moving from ivory tower to the main street with these, these traumas that are happening daily in our communities.

Yeah, I really appreciate you talking about this. I know what I love most is that it’s that this wrong, this, this just happened and that you’re able to process this, this rapidly enough to share it in a way that. That hopefully is helping you guys, your listeners, parents out there, family members, community members, and obviously, you know, so much gratitude to the law enforcement, you know, for the school systems, teachers, everybody doing their part.

 Painted a really great picture of Casey. Thank you so much. Thanks, Danielle. Thanks everybody. Thank you for inviting us.  Please let us know what you think of this episode. Was it helpful? What else can we do to help you? Any ideas you have, if you’d like to join the podcast. We would love to hear your opinion.

 So reach out to Casey at IFIOC. com and we’ll get back with you. Thanks so much, Casey. Thank you. Thank you for listening to the communication solution podcast with Casey Jackson and John Gilbert. As always, this podcast is about empowering you on your journey to change the world. So if you have questions, suggestions, or ideas, send them our way at Casey at IFIOC. com. That’s Casey@IFIOC.Com. For more information or to schedule a training, visit IFIOC.Com. Until our next communication solution podcast, keep changing the world.