About this Episode
Welcome to today’s episode of The Communication Solution podcast with Casey Jackson, John Gilbert and Danielle Cantin. We love talking about Motivational Interviewing, and about improving outcomes for individuals, organizations, and the communities that they serve.
In this episode, we explore why we chose Communication Solution’s name, delving into Casey’s expertise in motivational interviewing and its profound impact on individuals and organizations. The conversation underscores the importance of effective communication in transforming outcomes and culture within organizations.
In this episode, we discuss:
- Casey explains the choice of the podcast name, “The Communication Solution,” and its connection to motivational interviewing.
- The significance of motivational interviewing as a powerful skill set for personal and professional growth.
- Casey’s perspective on communication’s impact on individuals, systems, and society as a whole.
- The idea that effective communication is a solution for improving outcomes in various aspects of life.
- The role of communication in different areas, from relationships to organizational culture.
- The importance of aligning behavior with values and the role of communication in achieving this alignment.
- The challenge of implementing motivational interviewing in organizations and the need for fidelity to make a real impact.
- The connection between effective communication and improved organizational outcomes, such as reduced turnover and higher satisfaction.
- The shift from a control-based mindset to a more open and supportive communication approach.
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Thank you for listening to the communication solution. This podcast is all about you. If you have questions, thoughts, topic suggestions, or ideas, please send them our way at firstname.lastname@example.org. For more resources, feel free to check out ifioc.com.
In this podcast, we discuss:
Hello and welcome to the Communication Solution Podcast with Casey Jackson and John Gilbert. I’m your host, Danielle Cantin. Here at the Institute for Individual and Organizational Change, otherwise known as IFIOC, we love to talk about communication.
We love to talk about solutions. And we love to talk about providing measurable results for individuals, organizations, and the communities they serve. Welcome to the communication solution that will change your world.
Hello, beautiful people. It’s Danielle Cantin here, your facilitator of the communication solution, and I’m here with Casey Jackson.
Hey, Casey. Hey, I’m excited today to talk about why you named this podcast. The communication solution. We know that you’re kind of a master with motivational interviewing. You train, so many organizations and help so many people with this incredible tool evidence based practice. Why did you call this podcast motivational interviewing?
Why, why communication solution? You know, I think partially it’s from my background as a social worker and a social work perspective is that you’re trying to help as many individuals, but looking at systems, you’re looking at a micro level, you’re looking at a macro level and motivationally is not the end all be all.
It’s the most phenomenal, truly the most phenomenal skill set I’ve ever accessed and, and, developed for myself. It’s had the most profound. Impact on me personally and professionally, but the more I grew my skillset and expanded my understanding, I just think there’s a profound awareness of how communication impacts our lives or the lack of communication or, or communication.
And. For me, it’s not that every conversation is, am I, nor should it be motivational interviewing, but by definition, if there’s a conversation, there’s communication, you know, no matter what that communication is. Can we find a way to be more effective? Can we find a way to be more efficient and, and heal ourselves, heal families, heal communities, you know, heal societies.
That’s, that to me is a solution. And the one thing we have control over is what we say when we open our mouth. So for me, it was just kind of that, You know, meditation that came to me is just like, this is truly a communication solution. So that’s, that’s kind of my walking into that and just thinking that would be, for me, that’d be a fascinating podcast to listen to.
Something that really does give me kind of a mindset and a skill set to improve outcomes of things around me. I love that one. And you know, when I met you on stage, you were, you know, speaker at the senior living conference and. I was just blown away. I was blown away because I, I did not know motivational interviewing and in branding and marketing, which is my career, my background, my expertise is like in branding and marketing, you touch every single day.
If you’re not touching every single department, you’re doing something wrong because you’re a reflection. That’s what you’re bringing to life is the culture and, and how are you making sure it’s aligned? And that’s why I was like, Oh my God, this is a tool that you can use. To actually make sure everybody is aligned if it starts from the top.
So it was really, I’m really drawn to that. It’s called the communication solution. And I also understand the difference that motivational interviewing, is, is the tool that you pull out when you want to address behavior change. Is that fair to say it is, and you know, the communication solution is a much better term than the nightmare that you look at with the, the name of my company, which is the Institute for Individual and Organizational.
All right, that’s example. And that’s exactly what I was thinking. The same thing with communication solution is I was looking at the more I was evolving my understanding and application motivational interviewing. This applies on an individual level, but it applies on an organizational level or on systems levels.
And again, this goes back to my social work mindset of how do I have a micro level impact and a macro level impact. And like, you and I’ve talked about so many times, whether I’m talking to an individual or you’re within an organization. So the issues come down to poor communication or the absence or the lack of communication.
So I don’t care if you’re talking about a marriage or a relationship or parenting or with your friend group or in your office or within the organization. I mean, probably the number one thing you hear more than anything when people are disgruntled is it feels like I don’t know what’s going on. Nobody communicates with me, you know, there’s miscommunication.
Well, that’s not what they told me. It’s just. Communication, communication, communication, communication, which makes sense when you talk about from a branding and marketing, like, well, branding and marketing should be, you know, have the fingers, you know, at least in connection with every single department or program.
And what does that mean? That means communication, whether it’s written or, or, yeah, it’s, hands down every single organization I’ve worked with. Communication is the number one pain point, and they just don’t have a solution. That’s why when I met you, I was like, we’ve got to make sure everybody in the world knows about this.
Every single CEO and leader needs to know there really is, there really is a system that you can use a way of being and actual tools and, and.
So Casey, can you tell us, a little bit about the actual companies that you’ve helped, in the, I would say the for profit world with their communication solutions or their culture? Yeah. The thing that’s so, why I get so You know, passionate about this is, you know, I’ve worked with all sorts of companies in, in senior living, you know, at least there’s a, there’s a business or an industry for everything.
And somebody has got to do those things, and, you know, behavioral health, mental health, substitute. There’s just so many organizations that I’ve had the privilege to work with. I think where it’s difficult when you were talking about CEOs. You know, thinking from a CEO or CEO or CFO perspective, I think there’s so much marketing out there for use our brand of communication and then people use it and it’s like, yeah, that was helpful, but it really fades over time or it just doesn’t stick.
It doesn’t make a cultural shift and, you know, part of my. Investment in motivational interviewing is it does make system change. It makes cultural shift if people will follow it to fidelity. So it’s not because Casey Jackson says it’s so it’s not because I found a brand or I did a TED talk. It’s literally because the data bears it out.
It is an evidence based practice for a reason. Because the research continues to bear out and continues to evolve the way we use language and apply it. So what does everyone do in leadership positions or program managers? Okay, let’s get somebody to train MI. So somebody comes in and trains MI, and they’re like, well, that didn’t change our outcomes.
But people really like the training. And that tends to be the way that things unfold, typically. Because most people don’t want to invest in the full fidelity model. So. You know, I like being very transparent when I talk to any organization. And I think this is where I think there’s more of a, of a hesitancy in the corporate world because they’re always being sold something.
And in motivation, I mean, you’re not selling anything. You’re really trying to help them have the culture that they want. So they’re always filtering who’s selling me the new software, who’s selling me new it, who’s selling me. Yeah. I know yours is the best, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But where the rubber hits the road, how is this going to make a difference?
And I think that’s what we are talking about for administration. Those are decisions that they have to make. What it comes to with motivational interviewing is when you’re following a fidelity model that has as much research as MI does behind it, you know, for 40 years of research, what you’re looking at.
And it’s why I use that analogy with grandma’s recipe. If you’re only going to pay for flour and sugar, and you’re only going to bake the cookies or whatever you get out of flour and sugar, you’re only going to bake it for half the time. It is not going to taste like grandma’s recipe. So this is what’s so hard.
I think is in the corporate world. It’s like, I don’t want to be sold a bill of goods. We just don’t have the resources to throw away if this isn’t going to affect our bottom line. But if this actually changes our culture, it changes our outcomes. Yes. We’ll invest in it, but everybody tells us it’s going to change our culture and change our outcomes.
So it is, how do you move above that white noise, which is why for me, it’s just easier because behavioral health and healthcare knows this works. They know the data works in their world. And in spite of that, they continue to just want a one day training on motivational interviewing. So even though they know yes, and they’ll put on their websites, yes, we use motivational interviewing research shows.
If you go in and measure those people who say they’re using MI, they’re not actually using motivational interviewing. They’re doing reflective listening and open ended questions. So. It gets reduced because people say, well, we only have this amount of money, or we only have this much time. I only want to train this number of staff.
And for me, why I love that recipe analogy again is because it’s like, well, I want this phenomenal chocolate souffle, but we’re not going to buy the good chocolate. I need you to make it in 10 it in 10 minutes. And the oven only goes to 200 degrees and you’re like, well, I can’t make that souffle.
Like you’re not giving me the ingredients, but if you really want to taste that way every single time that people are blown away and have a transformative experience, here’s exactly the recipe. Here are the ingredients that you need. This is how long it’s going to take. And this is the outcomes that you’re going to get every single time.
Which is why with grandma’s recipe, if she does it when she wants to, and she starts in the morning, she has everything at her disposal that she wants. At the end of the day when she, she pulls it outta the oven. Everybody’s like, oh my God, this is amazing. How does she do this every single time? Well, that’s fidelity to a model.
If you’re going to skimp on the ingredients, if you’re not gonna put enough prep time into it, it just is not going to taste the same. And that’s why I use that analogy for fidelity because most people say, yeah, I know that all the ingredients you need are going to take, you know, 100. We’ve only got 20 in our budget.
And I know that she likes to bake them for 20 minutes, but we only have 10 minutes to bake them. And it’s like, well, it’s just not going to, you’re talking language of every business. Exactly. And that’s exactly, that’s why I’m talking about why this is so difficult when, when you look at the data, but what they do is they just drool over the data going, what do you mean that it reduces?
Like I think of law enforcement, what do you mean? It reduces use of force by 40%. Because that an organization, a law enforcement agency that actually followed Fidelity, it reduced their use of force by 40 percent when I used it in employment services for a division of Oak Rehab, you know, they went from a kind of 48 to 52 percent rehabilitation rate to a 78 to 82 percent rehabilitation rate.
That’s mind boggling. That’s literally a significant increase, a 25 percent increase of people getting back to work that have struggled with. Disabilities or in the world that you and I’m in senior living, where you, as if you help people work through their ambivalence, instead of having an occupancy rate of about 80%, 85%, you’ve got 100 a waiting list because people are helping, they’re working through their own ambivalence.
It’s not how do you stick a crowbar in there and leverage people into your, you know, getting a head in a bed, which is what people continue to try to do, which is why they can’t break that 85 percent occupancy rate. What you’re looking at is how do you communicate more effectively so people work through their ambivalence so they’re making a decision that aligns with their values.
And that’s just when we’re talking about your customer base. We’re not even talking, Danielle, about your workforce. So when you take a workforce who’s under stress and pressure and trauma, their own trauma, pandemic, post pandemic, their brains are not functioning as effectively. So increasing productivity expectations is not wrong.
It’s not bad. It’s going to increase stress and you’re going to have a difficulty with retention. It is just math. And so people like coming into a one day training online, it’s just like, and so this is that the cycle and pattern over and over and over again, this is why you and I connected so well, because it’s not a matter of money.
Like you said, it’s a matter of investment. What do you want to invest? It’s not a matter of training dollars because fundamentally training dollars are basically budget dust, you know, depending on, especially in the corporate world, like that’s, that’s the least, that’s the least amount of their budget is corporate training.
They’re spending. Millions and millions and billions in other areas and then training. They’ve got the budget dust for it that they give to it, but they’re not thinking about what can we do to fundamentally shift and invest in our organization to make a shift in primary outcomes and primary outcomes means if you have a robust workforce and an exceptionally good product, you there, you should not have a problem at all with your profit.
If you have a culture that people are really invested, I mean, look, you and I know this, look at just the, the. com phenomenon, look at the Google phenomenon. They broke the mold in terms of how they set up the workplace culture. So you have people that are walking, working by choice, 12 to 14 hours a day, because they have a bunk bed in their cubicle, you know, and they have a gaming system in there and they have all the food and snacks and everything they could ever want.
And so it’s like, well, if you’re going to give me all this stuff, I’ll, I’ll work because I love doing this kind of a job anyway. So if I wake up, so if you, so it’s not a matter of, so then what do people try to do? They try to replicate it. So they try to put bunk beds and they try to put gaming systems in.
It’s like, that’s not the point because that’s not going to work for people that work in behavioral health. That’s going to cause more stress. Like that’s not, it has to be, what is your vision? What is your mission and how do you maximize the capacity of your workforce? When you do it through really effective communication, you help them continue to ensure that their behavior is aligned with their own vision, mission, and values, and that their vision, mission, and values aligns with the organization’s vision, mission, and values.
The most complicated thing in this, Danielle. The thing that makes it so difficult is, and I tell this to when administration has me come in and have conversations, these initial conversations because I am so transparent is once you make the decision to go there, it puts executive leadership on point because from this point forward, your behavior has to start to be above reproach because if your behavior is not going to line up with the
shadow of the leader. You’re giving permission to the rest of your workforce to stand around the water cooler and blame outside themselves and make excuses, which is what administration does often is they make excuses. And it doesn’t mean they’re not real excuses. And it doesn’t mean that it’s not legitimate blame.
You’re just literally creating a culture that is what we do here when we don’t, when we don’t get to where we want to go, or they say all these amazing flowery things in their vision and mission statement. And as soon as you ask the workforce, the workforce says, oh, yeah, they may say that, but it’s about the numbers.
They can post whatever they want in our lobby, in this beautifully painted lobby, in this beautifully scrolled, gilded vision of mission statement, but when it comes down to it, if we’re not hitting our numbers, then we’re out of here. That’s a, that’s a, that’s a discrepancy between values and behavior, which is literally no different than somebody that’s struggling with substance abuse.
Who says they want their kids back? And it’s like, yeah, but your behavior is not lining up with what you say your values and your goals are. So this is for me, why the communication solution comes into it, because it’s like, how do we use language to close those gaps? Yeah, I think it’s interesting. It makes me think of the visionary, the leader, and the courage that that person has to have to, to really provide this level of training to fidelity to your point.
I noticed with all the trainings that you do with different organizations, many do start with just give us the intro. And then it’s not soon after, but they’re like, can we have the advanced if they didn’t jump already? Because I’m also in awe for people who jump in and say, I want intro and advanced and they see the big picture.
And there’s 2 things I’ve experienced in talking with these organizations, the. Is the, the champion there’s somebody in that organization that believes so deeply in this work in that bigger vision that they go through all the politics that are needed inside an organization to, to communicate to use the tools, actually, to communicate with their leadership and make sure everybody’s aligned.
And buys into it, I’m really in all of those people. That do that for the organization. And it’s not always the leader and in fact. Is it typically somebody in, inside that then brings it to the leader? It’s, it’s, yeah, it’s pretty rare that it’s the executive leader that is the one who has the brainstorm.
That’s, that’s pretty rare. It usually is somebody that’s been through a training or has been exposed or was at a conference and heard about it. Now they’re exploring it. That tends to be it. It, the most profound changes I ever see is when executive leadership gets it. When they truly something clicks in their brain and they’re like, we’re in, we’re, we’re going all in.
That’s, that’s like one organization that, you know, we’re working with right now made the decision to go to full finality and their, their workforce is going through the skill building process and getting measured and getting feedback. And I just let, well, this is an email you and I were on yesterday was that already October is one of their best months ever.
Because. They’ve moved to full fidelity and people have let go of over practicing reflective listening, over practicing the or skills because those things get pushed so hard in intro trainings, which that’s a communication technique. That’s not a communication solution. And that’s why, for me, it’s beyond motivational interviewing.
There is a mindset and a skill set that moves it to, to a, to a solution based process, not a technique driven. skill set. So that’s, that’s why I think what we do is so different. I think that’s the thing that stood out to you is like, yeah, this just seems different. It is. And in that example that you’re giving with the organization we’re working with.
The, the success story, I, I had like tears thinking about this one team member who is dealing with a gatekeeper. There isn’t a company in the world that doesn’t have a gatekeeper, some kind of gatekeeper who really was making it his job to mess up everything. I refuse. The wall is as big as in Game of Thrones, man, you are not proud of it.
This team member was like. You know, yes, he’s been through training, but he’s like, I guess I’m not really good, but I’m going to have to give this a whirl and yes, and the joke, I don’t know if you heard this piece, but the joke was he spent two hours with this gatekeeper and it was, it was a tough gatekeeper and he flipped was now their advocate in two hours.
Yes. The joke internally was Casey would have done it in 10.
That is hilarious. Craig’s like, God, way to go. This guy, we can’t say who the company was, but the guy that did it, you could feel, I could feel the, the, the head gal’s story. She’s talking to this guy that’s sitting there going, Oh God, I’m not good enough. I’m not good enough. I don’t know what I’m doing yet.
And then taking that leap. I think it’s the occurrence of this vulnerability that just locks my world with this. Yes. You know, and, and Danielle, the, the thing that makes it accessible for me or ways that I want it to be accessible for everyone is that that really is no different than if you spend a month, you know, with a golf coach and, you know, and you’re going on the green with your golf coach for the first time, you’re getting out of the Bay area, you’re getting out of the, you know, you’re getting out of the.
The golfing bay and you’re, or you’re getting out of the batting cage or you’re getting out of the, and it’s like, okay, now we’re going to go play a game. You’re like, I don’t know if I can do this. Like, oh my gosh, you’ve been practicing this. You’ve got to do it sometime. You’ve just gotta, you’ve gotta step out of the nest and flap your wings.
And it’s like, oh my God, I’m flying. I’m flying. I’m flying. I’m flying. It’s like, yes, you’re flying. You’ve got the wings for it. Now you’ve got the skillset. You’ve got the mindset. You’re good. And then all you do is improve from there. That’s honestly, Danielle, it’s the reason why, you know, my mindset in when we developed the MICA, the measurement tool, the motivation competency assessment.
What’s the reason why one of those striations of I wanted people to get feedback of is this a person centered conversation is this competent motivational interviewing or do you want to get to a level of mastery where you’re highly proficient like it’s it’s such a growth mindset and a growth model that you can see your progression and continue to get coaching and get better and better every single time I do a training I get better at motivational review every single time.
And people think that I’m this expert in it. And I, and I’m just always in awe that every time I talk with somebody, my knowledge and understanding and skills around motivation can improve. And it’s like, what a lifelong gift. You know, people talk about tennis, or golf, you know, as a skill you get to age with while learning really effective communication is a skill set that you can always grow with for the rest of your life, no matter where you exist and where you.
You know, I think of Dr. Bill Miller who developed, am I one of the key founders and, he’s on his board in his senior living community, you know, with really effective communication, which is really helpful for the organization, you know, but he’s not. That’s what I love about it. Yeah. You never, am I anyone?
It’s incredible. Have you noticed, as everybody’s listening here, most likely everybody’s part of something bigger than themselves. in their career or business. Have you seen this trend? Cause I’ve seen it with the people in your world where they might start with intro and advanced, but more and more seem to be really seeing the big picture and going, Oh God, I do want fidelity.
I do want to get to that point of let’s do the Micah assessment and individually get. That, you know, make that investment in their people and their team to say, yes, we will, we will support you in getting this code coding and coaching individually. I’m seeing more of that is, is that just in my head or do you see that too?
I see it too. And I think what it is is because the, the thing that’s. Very validating, reinforcing for me is that so many people that go through any level of training are just like, I just, I don’t know if this is going to change my job, but I feel better in my life right now. And that, I mean, it’s just such a common like out of the gate, what people tend to say is like, I just feel clear in my own brain.
I feel like I’m going to be healthier in my own family interactions. And I think that is just the, just to go, I want to get better. And the more they use it after an intro or an advanced training. It’s like, I’m, I’m ready to start pushing all in. And I think because what, what my sense is, Danielle is I keep going to pandemic post pandemic, I think that it’s like people have been.
Craving a solution or craving way out of their depression or craving a way out of their anxiety, and this is providing concrete skills and a mindset, a growth mindset that aligns with what so many people have been seeking. So I think organizations start to see the improved outcomes, but you read into this as often as I do at IFIOC is that so many people are like, you know what, let’s just keep kind of pushing into it and we’ll see if management catches up or, well, I’m going to talk to leadership because we have got to do the advanced training.
So we’re going to find a way to make this happen. It’s coming from the inside. That’s why when you said. You know, is it often that it starts with executive leadership? It’s it does happen at times. It just tends to be more rare because again, it gets reduced to, Oh, has our workforce gone through the M. I.
training yet? It’s not the mindset of this truly is a solution that could fundamentally shift, you know, our, the culture that we work within. And it will help us align from a leadership perspective. I think the one that one of the very first trainings you ever sat in on in person was with a healthcare company, and that healthcare company, which was a relatively small, all things considered, it wasn’t a United healthcare company, but it was a service provider, all different business lines.
But you sat in there and watched their brain shift over time to go from, yeah, this is great. This is fun. This is interesting to when it started impacting outcomes and how much they started implementing in HR. And the difference was making from an HR perspective, which helped them not clean house. It helped people find the right fit.
And I think people. Think that they’re doing that or say that they want to help people find the right fit, whether it’s with our organization or not our organization. But HR really glommed on to this and the COO really glommed on to MI and it really started changing the fundamental culture. And so some people from the outside were saying, wow, they’re really cleaning house there.
But from the people that were experiencing, even the staff themselves were saying, I don’t know if this is the right fit for me and other people coming into the organization thinking, I cannot believe that this is a health care organization. Like, this is what I’ve always dreamed of. What do you mean?
This is the way we operate here. And so it really did just kind of recalibrate and they went from a 3. 5 Rating star rating as an organization in healthcare and senior living, they went from a 3. 5 star rating to a 5. 0 rating to the highest rating you can get, within three years. That’s, that’s, that’s data and their outcomes have improved their staff satisfactions, improve their retention rate, where they have pretty decent turnover rate because it’s healthcare, there’s decent turnover.
Their retention rate is amazing now because people love where they work and the people that don’t want to be there anymore feel very good about when they, they move on to something different. It’s just a healthier organization. You’re triggering this memory for me when I was in training with you and 1 of the, you’re so brilliant, right?
In the moment when somebody brings up an example, and then you could tell they’re really stressed. They’re like, listen, we are losing people. We can’t keep people, you know, in their position. So I had, you know, my best nurse, or I can’t remember who it was was going to leave. And I’m like, holding their ankles, you know, the HR, whoever the team leader was, or, I’m holding their ankles and you’re like, cool, or you can do it this way.
And you just like ad libbed a whole conversation you could have with that person you wanted to leave that just the energetically, the way I describe this work is like control, control, control, fear, fear, fear. Let’s kind of manage everything to like, what if you release and actually stop controlling and how to.
a system for doing that. Yes. We all instinctively know that’s how you’re going to get somewhere faster, but it is, we’ll have the tools to do that. And it seems, it feels so ironic that, you know, we hear this all the time and I think it sounds a little esoteric, but what we tend to hear is, you know, let go.
If you want things to go, let go. You know, if it’s, you know, if it’s just exactly, exactly. And that’s what we think.
And now we’re back to the communication solution. I mean, full circle again, because it is how you communicate. And I just have to say it again, this is as much mindset and there’s specifical measurable mindset as it is skill set. And I think people are so heavy on the learning new skills. Or relearning the same skills they’ve learned over and over and over again, thinking that’s going to kind of dislodge.
If I keep learning the same communication skills, it’s not, there is a mindset we can measure that will help get people aligned with that. And there’s a mindset and there’s a whole, you know, grandma’s recipe. Like I keep saying. For fidelity, you know, provides a structure, and a path forward with it. So yeah, that clearly this is my obsession.
I’m so riled up. I can keep going. But, one thing I want to say, and I don’t remember where I heard you say this, but you were mentioning about, like, I think of organizations and, and I’m a sucker for a motivational speaker. I really am. And it’s like, you can listen to as many motivational speakers as you want.
Yes. But If you can bring something more than that, that’s not going to get you to a team or a culture of inspiration on a consistent basis. Right. That really resonated with me because I’m like, Oh, I see so many companies doing that. Everybody gets excited about that keynote, inspirational speaker. And I think that’s why you broke through that conference for me when you were the keynote because I was like, dang, this is not, it was so memorable and you were, I don’t want to say who you were aligned with because there’s such big names and mentors for my whole career.
Same people. And I was like, I can’t remember what they said, but I could never get you out of my head. And it was pretty profound. You know, and I think that’s, I think that’s the clinician or the social worker in me is I just want to make sure that when I’m, when I’ve had an interaction with somebody, there’s a changed outcome.
And it, it struck me early on that I, I was thinking about this, like, well, anybody can motivate, anybody can inspire, which is phenomenal. That’s great to be able to do that, but it doesn’t necessarily correlate to change. Thank So just because you’re inspired to just because you feel motivated doesn’t measurably create long term sustained behavior change consistently.
It’s more random of who did it inspire, who did it motivate. That’s more of a random shotgun approach. So yeah, you can have lots of inspiring speakers. You can have motivational speakers, but to walk away with a communication solution that we can measure and give feedback on and actually see the change in outcomes, that’s that it just gets to the heart and the core of why I love doing the work that I do again, on a, on an individual level or on a collective level of organization level.
Yeah. Thank you so much for what you do, Casey. I know this would be a short episode. I could keep going. I’m just so grateful. So grateful I met you. And you know, for all of you listeners out there, if you are struggling with communication, reach out. If you have success stories in communication, reach out.
We really, really want to hear from you. So just give us, give us a shout at Casey at IFIOC. com and we can’t wait to hear from you. Any, any party words, Casey? No, I just, I just, just even having this conversation with you, just, the gratitude and the humility that I feel both, you know, it just, it helps counterbalance that imposter phenomenon.
But then when I, when we start having these conversations and I look at all the organizations I’ve worked with and the profound difference it’s made in their workforce and their outcomes, I just, I just have nothing but gratitude. So I just, I’m just glad we were able to have this conversation. Awesome.
Thanks so much, Casey. See you on the next episode. All right. Take care. Thank you for listening to the communication solution podcast with Casey Jackson and John Gilbert. As always, this podcast is about empowering you on your journey to change the world. So if you have questions, suggestions, or ideas, send them our way.
That’s Casey@IFIOC.com. com for more information or to schedule a training, visit IFIOC.Com until our next communication solution podcast, keep changing the world.
Casey and I was like, that is so brilliant.
So even if you’re wrong, it’s a win for them. Absolutely. Yeah. As you’re engaging, it’s, it’s interesting as I’m, again, I’m kind of weaving that little thread of all the courage it takes to, to make that assumption to. To do that reflective statement and then what it does is it sounds like it creates a vulnerability where the person that you’re talking to does feel a little more safe.
Like it isn’t a compliance, which is bizarre what you do, Jess, because I’m like, you’re in a compliance land and they’ve got to be a little rattled by that. It has to be a really cool experience. Yeah. Sorry, Casey. Go ahead. You picked up on that like it, I think it is jarring for them because they’re sent, you know, our clients are sent to us from probation and then I say to them, Hey, look, I can’t force you to come back after this intake and they’re like, Yeah.
Okay. And it’s just like, you know, that’s really up to you, whether, you know, you, you come back or not. And I sort of say, you know, if you come back, you’ve obviously made the decision that it works out better for you to continue on, even if you might not want to. And if you decide not to, you’re like, you, you think that it’s worth the risk.
To see what happens, how the court responds. And they, it just, it’s sort of wild. They’re sort of look at me and they’re like, okay, it has to freak them out. Okay, lady. That’s exactly. Oh, sorry. Go ahead, Casey. Oh, all I was going to say is it just, that so reminds me of a, one of the audios I listened to, Dr.
Teresa Moyers, and it’s not one of her more. Popular ones, because it’s just an audio, but it was so profound to me. She did the exact same thing is the person said, well, the judge made me come here. And Terry being Terry says, well, yeah, I don’t work for the judge. And, and he’s like, no, but the judge says I have to be here.
So I have to go to treatment. She goes, yeah, like I just said, I don’t work for the judge. I work for you. And if you don’t want me to work for you, that’s totally fine. I know, but then I’m going to get all these consequences. And she goes, yeah, like I said, I don’t work for the judge. This is totally your decision.
If this is something you want to pursue or not. He’s like, but what am I going to do if I don’t choose? I’m not sure. I just don’t want people coming here. We help them. They’re kind of out of trouble, but ultimately it’s your decision if you want to participate in treatment or not. And it’s so disarming and discombobulating because they’re used to running into compliance and you will and the finger shaking.
Which just generates resistance and reduces outcomes in a compliance driven system. So I love the way you said that because it’s like you literally see how it disarms them because they don’t know how to fight with somebody that’s not going to take it and fight with them. Yeah, it makes me think of when we were chatting, Jess, just about your interest and what a gift to be able to give, your clients that you care so deeply about.
Are your values aligned with your behavior? And I think what you had said was, you know, you could talk all day long about values and criminal behavior, you know, as your behavior, bringing you closer or further away from your values. I mean, when do your clients actually have an opportunity? To have somebody care about that, to help them figure out what their values are.
It’s just an incredible gift. Can, can you talk a little bit more about that? Cause you seem really passionate about it. Yeah, absolutely. So I, Casey said, I mentioned the finger wagging, like, you know, they’re the folks are constant, constantly brought up with, well, you messed up, you did this, you did that.
Now you have to do this. Now you have to do that. And that’s not. And so I just sort of like to ask, so what’s important to you and just start that conversation, by gathering like, you know, really honestly information about themselves, and what, you know, what drives them, what moves them, and then sort of going backwards.
And looking at, so maybe some of the, offenses and sort, like, how does that, you know, work in unison? Like, does that, you know, how’s that feel? Like knowing that you care about your family and, you know, you’re also now separated from the family. What, what’s that like for you now? And so just asking, I think what’s so impressive about that in real time, cause there’s so many right ways to do it.
And so it’s interesting, just listening to the way you talk about it and the way you train it and the way you embody it. Fundamentally, what you’re doing is you’re just disarming the person. And it’s not because you’re trying to disarm them traditionally from a compliance perspective. It’s just disarming when it’s like, I’m not here to argue or fight because this really is just your life.
And when you make those comments that you get to choose. Which is so am I adherent? It’s hard to take a swing at somebody that’s telling you you have choices and they’re not doing it from a parental. Well, you’ve got some choices here that still feels authoritative. That is just genuinely authentically.
You’ve really got choices and when they’re less defensive to go and this looks like a struggle you have and this looks like some values you have. What do you make of it? What do you want to do from here? Which is just literally what I get obsessed with when, you know, talking to other mentees about these things is looking through a trauma informed lens.
You’re, you’re allowing the executive function to kick back in instead of keeping them perpetually in fight flight freeze mode. And that’s what I think of is the, it’s not being gentle. It’s not coddling them. It’s like, let’s just be. Productive to get to a better outcome. And if the research shows this is going to lend itself to a better outcome because it’s just the way the human brain works, it’s the way the human spirit works.
Why don’t we just sync up with that so we can get a better outcome so we can reduce recidivism, which is kind of the point, you know, kind of why we’re employed. I mean, I make the joke, I say like, you know, I hate to break it to you, you know, if, if telling people what to do or, or, yelling at someone so that they would do the right thing worked, we would be unemployed.
Absolutely. So that does not work. At all. I mean, certainly, there are maybe some, some folks that are justice involved and maybe one, you know, offend once. Yes. Cause they don’t end up re offending. So some of that scare tactics sometimes does work with one time offender, you know, one time offenders. And I don’t like necessarily using the word offender, but I also think it helps folks know who we’re talking about.
And then some of the folks that, you know, have, recidivate. That doesn’t work. Well, and the system is not choked up with first time offenders. That is not what chokes up the system. Those people actually move through the system fairly quickly. And don’t reoffend. So that is not where the problem is in the system.
The problem in the system is, and I mean, this is my, just I’ll own all my bias, is you’re dealing with people with probably significant amounts of childhood trauma who their executive functioning has been damaged. Which means once they’re caught in this spin cycle, their natural reaction or what they’ve developed because of their trauma response is going to keep them in that spin cycle.
And we’re going to continue to stigmatize and diagnose and blame and choke the system with people that are experiencing significant trauma, have had a significant childhood trauma. So it’s just like, and I, the data bears this out, which is why so many systems, you know, justice involved, we’re looking at.
Any of these, these systems, when they look at data, they’re trying to implement all of these evidence based practices because they’re like, hey, what we do does not work. I mean, you can’t escape the data. The data says we’re not good at what we do and what we’re doing is causing more problems in communities and in families and in our society.
So we need to do it differently. But boy, when it’s so. Enculturated in some of these, you know, justice systems, law enforcement systems. It is really, really hard to kind of dislodge that and make it more of a forward thinking evidence based approach. Absolutely. I think it’s fascinating. You know, I always look at.
These conversations, I love seeing the different industries where motivational interviewing works and I’m just so moved by, the, the criminal justice system and how the gift of reducing resistance. or eliminating resistance. It’s incredible because I just think somebody who is like, you had mentioned like an offender, right?
It’s the trauma that’s involved most likely in their past. The way my brain works is they have a lifetime of swinging and resisting everyone and everything around them that this is the first gift they get where it’s like. Oh my gosh, let’s remove that. So you’re swinging. And then finally you’re like, oh God, there’s nothing to swing at.
Cause there’s nothing to resist anymore. That’s the first opportunity they get to go, what’s that resistance in me? What, what is that, that debate happening in me, the ambivalence that I’ve seen you, you talk and train about it’s really, it’s very, very moving for me as. It’s just a regular Joe on the street, you know, I’m like, Oh God, I can’t believe this work is happening out there.
It also makes me think of the times where I’ve just said to someone, I don’t know why, but it just came to me to say like, Hey, like that’s the way that you react in these situations, kept you alive. And kept you safe, you know? And yes, it’s drawn attention from law enforcement, you know, and ultimately you’re here.
Because that kept you safe, and just sort of not agreeing with it, also giving, like, yeah, and just, I don’t know, just making space for that person in that moment, because again, it’s that, you know, you did this, you did that, you hurt people. And yes, they did. And also there, it served a purpose, a protective, right?
Do you think it’s fair to say what you just described just to me is like, Oh, you invite them to have a little empathy for themselves. Cause oftentimes we think with compliance, it’s like, no, no, you know, like you, you hurt people and this is horrible. There could be that piece inside of them too, feeling that way.
And that might not help them get to their next step, whereas this feels like it’s actually by pointing out some things like that, having that empathy, that maybe they can take a little breath to say, Oh God, yeah, yeah, it did keep me safe before. Not that it was, that it’s okay to do that now, but a little more compassion or empathy is, is that fair to say?
I hope so. It hasn’t steered me in the wrong direction. And I know that. It could be some folks listening to this or even some people that I work with that would be like, I would never do that. And that’s okay. Don’t do it. It’s not authentic to you. Right. It also is going to be when you do it. It also is more associated with positive outcomes.
I mean, research continues to show that so you don’t have to do it if it doesn’t feel right to you, but then does it feel right to you to resist or push against skills or strategies that can actually get the outcomes that you kind of signed up that you want to do, try to accomplish, you know, just so there’s a discrepancy there between our professional behaviors and our own professional goals.
And desires at the same time, and I think it does make it difficult. It’s not, it’s not a simple slam dunk. I think it is something that people have to wrestle with. The beauty in it for me is the same, the same ambivalence that the professional is struggling with is, do you want to get your behavior in line with your values is the exact same ambivalence that the, you know, quote unquote offender is dealing with because it’s just human behavior is my behavior in line with my values.
And what do we do when our behavior is not aligned with our values? We want to blame outside of herself and make excuses, which is resistance talk and sustained talk. So it’s, it’s, it’s not overly complicated when you just kind of take a deep breath and go, wow, this is just a human experience in different Petri dishes.
You know, it’s just like, this is just. The things that we’re trying to navigate and what do we want for the ultimate outcome? I want to feel less stressed in my job I want to feel like at the end of the day I made a difference and my community is safer and this individual is happier And healthier and I feel happier and healthier and the individual walks away going You know what?
I need to get my head screwed on straight and stop screwing around and and really do what I need to do to support my family and and would that be kind of a A nice win win. And it’s just like, that’s what using this kind of an evidence based practice and effective communication generates. Wow. As, as, as we look to close, and I’d like both of any parting last thoughts from, from both of you as we close.
Sometimes I like this because we go through the episode and I’m like, the title just hits me. It’s, it’s like, I want to call it keeping it real. With motivational interviewing, because we kind of started with that of, of maybe the pushback of, of, people trying to help saying, I just want to keep it real.
Like, you know, we’ve got to keep it real with these people. And I haven’t, everything you’ve described is such, such a cool opportunity to be real and authentic with yourself, as you, as you help somebody else through this. So, awesome. This has been so helpful. It’s I opened my eyes to, to, an even deeper expression.
I think of what motivational interviewing can do. Any parting thoughts? I don’t know, Jess, if you want to jump in or Casey, any, our viewers or listeners. I think we have more than one Casey. What would you like to share with them? Just, well, I’m, I’m have my calendar open for my next gig with you.
So we’ll, we’ll book, we’ll book that. No, I, it’s like, it’s so funny. Cause I had in my mind, like, Oh, this is, this is where I want to go with this conversation. And then it just went in ways that I wasn’t planning. And that’s Literally, am I, because you’re working with, you’re talking with another person and they have thoughts, they have feelings and it’s going to go in places where you didn’t expect and just sort of buckle up, I think it’s sort of all I can really say.
Well, just, I, I, you know, it just, for me, just kind of wrapping it up too, is just, I, there is this. Kinetic energy that like being a mint or that even draws just 9 to having the conversation and, you know, Daniel, it’s no difference in the same, you know, kind of energy that drew, you know, you and I ended up having a connection and doing some work together. And I just think there’s, if you genuinely, genuinely want to make a difference in the world, you’re going to find your tribe of other people that are going, okay, how do we make the world a better place? How do we do this? How do we engage more effectively? And how do I stay authentic to myself?
That’s my obsession. That’s why I love this whole concept of communication solution is there’s, there’s things we’ve noticed. There’s things we’ve learned. There’s things that we can. Master that are going to improve the quality of our life and the lives of people around us. So I, I just, that’s why I love having these conversations.
It just, for me is. That’s the whole point. So just appreciate this. Just thank you so much for coming on. I told you it’s going to be fun. Effortless just I love these conversations. So thank you for coming on and having this time with us. Oh, thank you for having me. I’m very excited that I fangirled on you.
This is very enjoyable. Awesome. Thank you both so much. Everybody. Thanks for joining us today. I hope you tune in for the next episode. Thank you. Thank you. Have an awesome day. Thanks. Thank you for listening to the communication solution podcast with Casey Jackson and John Gilbert. As always, this podcast is about empowering you on your journey to change the world.
So if you have questions, suggestions, or ideas, send them our way at Casey@IFIOC.com that’s Casey@IFIOC.Com. For more information or to schedule a training. Visit ifioc. com until our next communication solution podcast Keep changing the world